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Veganism

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by A Better World, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    None round here, small village. Feeling shit about the eggs though. I think I going to try yeast extract, or something.

    Yeah, farmer dude, I dunno, but seems to be a vast gulf between using an animals shit for fertilizer, and killing them for food.
     
  2. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I don't get this. Vegan food is like, really cheap.
     
  3. Danarchy

    Danarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I do appreciate the difference, but the gap in the average persons understanding of our natural world is due to their disconnection with the natural environment. For millions of years humans and our ancestors ate meat. For thousands of years human civilisation both ate and worshipped animals. In the tradition of the Sepwemec nation we give thanks to the earth and the animals we eat through prayer at each meal and ceremony. I feel this is the natural state of humanity and well beyond the average persons pull stuff out of the fridge and cook it up meal. From birth until death we are intrinsically linked to the earth, if you spend your eturnity surrounded by concrete and plaster bombarded by noise, I doubt that you could develop the natural connection.

    We do require animals to properly maintain our agricultural capacity; once the animals begin to exceed our feed supply for them, animals breed, umm, like animals. What would you propose to do with them? We are not mass meat producers, nor are we mass meat eaters; most here are veg but to properly fertilise our 15 acres field crop we use between 7-10 m3 of goat manure per year (applied in spring as compost). This comes from a goat dairy, (certified organic) who has 75 milking does and produces at least 75 tons of manure per year. Total offspring per year 30-50 kids (goats will milk for up to 18 months after kidding and a further 3 months of rest before breeding). If we used the manure but did not cull the animals within 5 years the goat herd would be over 500 animals. In the wild, the herd size would be maintained by food supply, weather, disease, injury and predation; in the artificial world it is maintained by slaughter and consumption. The animals are not bred for meat, they are bred for milk; keep this in mind vegetarians.

    Eggs and laying hen maintenance is similarily problematic. The average laying hen will produce 5-7 eggs per week for the first two to three years afterwhich the production drops until they no longer produce eggs at about 5 years. I have had chickens live for over 12 years. We do not keep a rooster because we do not want to be constantly slaughtering chickens but if we did they would easily increase from our 24 to over 100 in a year. Again in the wild, the flock size would be maintained by food supply, weather, disease, injury and predation.

    All of this is done to maintain the microbial and micronutrient health of our soil. All this is done to ensure that people have veg to eat and all vegan/ vegetarians need to appreciate that the evolution of soil is equal to the evolution of all species and requires manure/ fertiliser from a broad spectrum of sources. No matter what you do, if you eat; animals are killed to supply you with food. What is most important to me; is how those animals were raised, how they were treated in life and how they were slaughtered; whether they were subjected to pain or inhumane treatment during their lives..

    I fully respect the decision to be vegan/ vegetarian but I also respect the decision to be a weekend omnivore or selectively eat small portions of meat. I would never argue against any diet but the current mainstream highly processed meat based one; I also believe that everyone, including vegans and vegetarians should eat without any illusions.

    All this said, a recent UN report on food security recommended that in order to feed the world population a vegan/ vegetarian diet was highly recommended but a 5% meat based protien diet would ensure an adequate food supply up to an beyond the global population peak level expected by 2050. The annual loss of 2-3% of global ariable land due to improper fertilisation was included in the study but it did not include any recommendations for field maintenance or production stability.
     
  4. apples&onions

    apples&onions Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    May 16, 2012
     
    Yes.
     
  5. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok, it aint like I haven't tried this. I grow maybe half of our food, that's for five people, and one horse provides far more shit than I need. Second, who the fuck uses chicken shit, goat shit, sheep shit, cow shit as fertilizer? It burns the soil. Get a fucking horse or two, they make tons of shit, seriously, and it's the best fertilizer you can get. Third, I live in a village in NE Bulgaria, surrounded by hills and forest, it's kinda remote. Everyone grows their own food, uses wood from forest as fuel, and just about everyone has a horse. The village is pretty much self sufficient, apart from electricity, and shit like coffee, sugar, salt. They also grow their own tobacco, and alcohol (wine, rakia). They would make beer also, but apparently it's so cheap to buy, it aint worth it. A lot of 'food' grows wild, apples, cherries, pears, peaches, apricots, walnuts, almonds, mushrooms, mint and other herbs (including cannabis). Anyway, I think I have a pretty good connection with the natural world, but I still never get the urge to slaughter animals (except ticks and horse flies, sorry, I don't say a prayer before I kill them), just eggs, on occasion, which I get from an old guy nearby that lets his chickens run everywhere, and I mean, everywhere. So what maintains the cat/dog/horse 'herd' size round there? Or do you slaughter and eat them, too.
     
  6. Danarchy

    Danarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Here it is called manure not shit. All of our manure is composted for at least 12 months before applying to the field. Goat, cattle, sheep and horses have a very simliar consistency in their manure being herbs that predominantly eat grass forage as their natural diet. They do not burn the soil. Chicken manure is an extremely high nitrogen fertiliser and when not mixed with a source of carbon; eg straw, wood chips, and applied directly to the soil it will burn out the soil unless followed immediately by an absorption crop such as cereal grains, repeated croping of nitrogen fixing legumes will also have a similar effect. Again, we apply compost not manure to our fields.

    We don't keep horses as we are a tractor based operation. Our cats and dogs are spayed/ neutered and rescued from our local humane shelter or have been dropped off by irresponsible urbanites who thought letting their 'pet' breed was a good idea. I have eaten dog, cat, possum, pigeon, and many other animals in a culturally significant manner, in many countries dog and cat are consider delicacies. It is not my place to cast judgement on cultures with whom I do not reside. I do not separate species and romantize my relationship with one over the other. I treat all animals with the same respect though I breed some for milk or eggs while working others (dogs). Pigs are widely consumed throughout Europe and North America yet are considered inedible by many cultures, they are also superior to dogs in intelligence/ desplays of emotion, though many 'almost' vegetarians swear by bacon and some continue to embrace meat consumption through fabricated meat products like faken bacon or mock chicken. Horses are also consumed by many cultures who also live intimately with them. It used to be a highly respected practice among mongul tribes to eat some of their best horses at celebrations or as a means of transfering the animals energy prior to a battle.

    Your area in Bulgaria appears to be a paradise. It is incredibly uncommon in North America. Our community (on the farm) is similar with the majority of our outside supplies being what we can not grow/ make ourselves. We heat with wood as well but have limited forest resources, our area has been ravenged by a 14 year drought as well as insects and forest fires that have reduced millions of hectares of forests to ashes. We have about 40 acres of wood lot but don't access 25 acres as they are sensitive fish, bird and beaver habitat. Last year we began replanting the trees we harvest on a 10 to 1 ratio to rebuild our forest.
     
  7. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    It's still shit. Ok, yes, if you leave it to compost for a year, you be fine. But, you can use horse 'manure' without doing that, you can shovel it on you crops straight from the horse, no problem. Do that with cow, etc, you kill the plants, cos... it burns. Too much acid content I guess. I use compost also, and wood ash. A paradise, well, maybe, but the locals do not think so. They all dream of living in cites surrounded by concrete. The grass is always greener (and the concrete grayer) I suppose. I have dogs and cats, which do breed, but it's different here to the west. Most dogs and cats are strays, they roam free, quite a few donkeys and goats do too. They don't sell dogs and cats in pet shops, if you want a dog or cat, you just go feed a stray. Winter is tough on them though, a lot of them die, it can hit -25c in winter. Anyway, I may be getting some chickens, probably. I am mostly vegan, well, I was for seven years, but I started eating eggs so I guess not any more. I never saw the point in 'mock' meat. Strange western thing, that a meal has to be based around meat. You know in India the meal is based around bread or rice. The rest, meat or not, is just 'sauce'. Yeah, they eat horses here too. They eat anything. They are kinda poor, eat anything, and don't throw anything away. There is plenty of forest here, but it is illegal to chop down healthy trees. They have rangers with rifles. There is plenty of dead wood and trees in the forest, though. I don't treat all animals with the same respect. I killed hundreds of beetles today. Colorado beetles, well, you know the story. Not very vegan really, but I lost about 90% of my potato plants to them last year. They strip a plant to the stem in a day or two. So I kill them bastards. Also ticks. Not really a speciest thing, I would kill anything that stuck it's head in my body and started sucking my blood. I see this as self defence. What crops do you grow?
     
  8. Danarchy

    Danarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Were under an organic certification program that prevents us from applying manure directly to fields. Cow manure is slightly alkaline which might actually benefit your soil is your applying wood ash/ lime whereas Goat manure is slightly acidic. We have a very high alkaline soil that is harder to contend with than an acid one. About 20cm below our topsoil is a metre think layer of a substance we call marle, it is a highly alkaline calcium/ magnesium deposit formed pre-ice age from a millenia of crustacian setiments. Keeps our soil at 8.6 which is in the high range for most crops. Had to apply a little sulfur this year to get some scab off of our potatos.

    I do view insects differently than mammals or birds or say reptiles. Some insects are my best friends and I talk to them when I see them and thank them for their incredible work (not that they understand but strangly it makes me feel good to appreciate nature) some are my mortal enemies that I kill on sight and I HATE the colorado beetle, we have had years of total crop failures almost overnight because them. Not to mention that they poison the plant if you crush'em on the leaf, their eggs are identical to lady bugs and nothing eats them, not even chickens. We don't have a problem with ticks but our mosquitos are fierce and can carry the West Nile virus, usually one or two confirmed cases in birds each year; can kill humans with depressed or underdeveloped immune systems like children and seniors. Mostly you feel a little worn out for a few days, not like Malaria.

    We grow about 150 different veggies, as well as operating a spring plant nursery and a small seed company. We grow enough food to supply 1/2 the needs of a 350 family box delivery service and three local farm markets. 12 acres cultivated but 15 acres in rotation.

    Although I do alot of field work, I specialize in fruit and nuts. I have 12 varieties of berries and several different nut trees. Last year I seeded 300 hazel/ fiberts and about 200 came up. 5 years and i'll be buried in them. The berries i'm most interested in at the moment are Josta and Sea Buckthorn. Josta is a German hybrid from about 1928 between a black currant and a gooseberry. It has the flavour of the currant with the size and texture of the gooseberry and it is thornless. I propagated my patch from a mother plant off of an overgrown bush that was brought here by the original settlers. The Sea Buckthorn is a Russian/ Chinese berry (I think) that fixes nitrogen and draws its nutrients from well below the subsoil. The seed oil makes an incredible cream with a very high vitamin E content, the leaves can be made into a tasty tea that is full of vitamins and micronutrients while also having a 20% protein content for animal feed and the berries have a higher vitamin C and Betacarotien level than oranges and carrots. Plus it tastes great but a little bitter without some apple juice mixed in, maybe it's my varieties, I have Hergo from Germany, Siberian Sun and Russian Red from the USSR and a Chinese variety called Askola. My partner focuses on culinary and medicinal herbs and is working on getting some spices to seed in our climate, she grew our own pepper last year.

    We probably have a similar climate. We have about 2-3 weeks in late January/ early February that are -20 to -35C with an average 75-175cm of snow. A friend of mine served in Serbia with the Canadian Military if your climate is similar to that area we would be really close to seasonal averages. We also get about 3 months between +25 to +40C without any rain through the summer than I find alot harder to deal with.

    I agree that the mainstream American diet really centers around meat, even for some vegans still loving their fake meat. Most of our meals here are soups, stews or curries based on potato or beans. Although our diet is seasonal; Spring is the dregs of the root cellar until the Leeks, Spinach and Lettuces start coming, Summer is full of variety, Fall is winter squash and winter is flour corn, storage crops and beans. We are trialing several new corns and adding an additional 6 varieties of beans. I got inspired by a workshop with a Cuban farmer who came Canada this winter, he brought 20 varieties of beans to share and talked about several of their new seed Co-ops (not state run) that have restored 2-300 varieties of dry beans/ peas, we had four varieties before. This will be ten and next year were looking at another 5 before isolation distance and cross polination become and issue.
     
  9. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I just use wood ash on fruit trees. Yes, sounds similar, though I think we get more rain during the summer, usually after the sun goes down it will rain for an hour. Ah, I was hoping the chickens would eat the beetles. Squashing them seems to work, numbers down to about 20% of what there was, but its a time consuming process. There are kinda tough, I have killed some of them twice. On the whole, I'm ok with insects, as you say, they do a fine job. Colorados are the only really bad one, get a couple large hornets which scare me. About two inch long, some of them, big lime green eyes and they sound like a helicopter when they fly. Rare though. Also saw a locust once. Just one, all alone, he must have got lost or something. I'm not sure what the soil is like here, it's very dark, and easy to work. Potatoes, courgettes, tomatoes, cucumber, beans, peas, spinach, chilli pepper all grow well. Pumpkins grow far too well. Cabbages, turnips, melons, corn not so well. Fruit and nuts, we have cherry, plum and walnut trees that were already here. Also planted peach, apricot, apple and pear three years ago. The apricot and peach have fruit on them now. Been trying to grow grape vines from cuttings for last few years without much success, but this year I got some rooted cuttings from a shop, and they seem to be doing just fine, about 4ft of growth. Bulgar (white), and Moldavia (black).
     
  10. anessen

    anessen Active Member Forum Member


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    I've been a vegetarian for about 8 or 9 months now. Mostly because I just don't feel right killing things for food when I don't need to. I know my boycott of the meat industry isn't going to make a huge amount of difference, but at least I'm not supporting it either! Fuck that.

    Been thinking about going vegan, might pick up some of those books. It always looks like such a pain in the ass though, fucking everything has some animal product in it.
     
  11. Danarchy

    Danarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Do you have any willow in your area? If you make a tea from the last 15cm of the previous years growth it contains a small quantity of Idubolic Acid (sp?) as well as A.S.A both are used in a synthetic form by commercial nurseries as rooting hormone. 1/4 cup of mashed or ground tips to 2 cups of boiling water, leave overnight then soak the cuttings for about 24 hrs or more. I continue to water with the tea for a week then switch to rain water. The Idubolic Acid is a plant stimulant specific targeting the healing process of wounded plants. A.S.A. is a pain killer but works in plants as a immune system activator basically kick starting their healing process.

    Grape though is very hard to root from cuttings, around here they are grafted for specific root stock traits or they can be layered successfully. To layer you would need an already growing vine, tip one of the branches to the ground and cover with soil. It should root within a season and can be cut from the parent plant in the spring. I have two Concord juice grapes I hope to propagate this year and propagate my kiwi by layering as well. Do you save seeds? We have been growing many of our own seeds for about 10 years now most of our carrots, beets, squash and onions are from our own seed. I also grow a small quantity of Rye and wheat for our own use.

    Even with my argument above about fertiliser, vegetables, grains, nuts do not contain meat. Use whole food and learn the ancient art of cooking. Soups, stews, curries are cheap and easy to prepare. Dry beans, properly prepared are significantly better than canned. And your personal boycott of the meat industry may not change the world, you may change the minds of others, or at least get them to think about their food and together we can change the world.
     
  12. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I don't think there is any willow nearby. The locals seem to grow grapes from cuttings ok. I followed their advice, had two that actually sprouted leaves, but then it rained for two days and that killed them off. Layering, yes, I shall try that. Ah, kiwis. I planted some this year as an experiment. Also experimental, peanuts, okra, lemons, olives. I did get a few lemons to germinate last year, but they died after a few weeks. I've also tried lentils and chickpeas, which do grow ok, but the yield hardly makes it worthwhile. Better to use the land for potatoes, really. Wheat, yeah, I like the idea of making bread from wheat that I've grown myself. Not a lot, just a few loaves. I do save some seeds, tomato, peppers, pumpkin, peas, beans. Hey, I only saw one adult colorado today, though still quite a few larvae. Looks like I'll lose about dozen plants, but I think I'm winning the war.
     
  13. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yeah, learn to cook. Indian food is a good one for vegans.
     
  14. CrustAndSkin

    CrustAndSkin Member Forum Member


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    My problems with being vegan:

    1.What the fuck would my dog and cat eat?
    2.I eat everything and I'm still always hungry,so I don't know will it satisfy my hunger.
    3.Animals eat animals.
    4.Why are vegans always the people that can afford to eat anything they want?
    5.I'm sceptic about that vegan clothing,especially boots,because I always wear boots and they are made from leather that allows feet to breathe,otherwise I think it would fucking stink,thats what happens when I wear syntetic sneakers(thats why I almost never wear them).

    I was thinking about becoming a vegan,and I still do,but I don't know as it seems that it's somehow limiting me. I'm not disgusted anymore when watching PETA videos as I was used to,although I was only disgusted when the video contained animals like dogs,cats,horses and alike(animals that no one eats in my country),but still that diet seems better and healthier to me but I don't know.
     
  15. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    We can't make decisions for others, if your cat wants to eat meat you should allow her to do that. We have the opportunity to decide wheater to eat meat or not. Vegans don't eat meat because they can't watch animals being imprisioned or brutaly beaten and killed just for us to get fatter. Animals have to eat meat, and they only eat it when they are hungry. We, on the other side, eat too much, and by eating we indirectly damage nature ( i could also add that we produce animals as products despite the fact that they are living creatures) Most of us vegans here are not 'rich' and can't afford everything, so your 4th point is a bit dummy. And as for 5th, we already had this discussion. It was about leather jacket for bikers. I think that todays technology is improving rapidly and that we're able to wear good clothes without hurting our body ( and if by 'boots' you mean 'dr. martens' i'm not sure how your legs 'breathe' in that shitz at summer ).

    Being vegan doesn't limit you at all. It offers you even more types of food that you didn't even know about. Unfourtunately, being a vegan today is really hard, especially in Croatia since no-meat products are very expensive.

    Pozdrav iz Zagreba !
     
  16. apples&onions

    apples&onions Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    However as a political tactic, this is pretty useless and ineffectual. Diet is a personal choice. However if you open yourself up to the multitude of cooking techniques and materials used by vegans there is a wealth of valuable information there. Pulses for one.
     
  17. CrustAndSkin

    CrustAndSkin Member Forum Member


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    The thing that's fucked up is when buying a dog or cat food it's like buying meat,although you don't eat it,the animal was killed for it,sooo...
    And I'm not saying that anyone here is rich,but it's a fact that poor people(not the third world countries) eat anything because they can't choose,and everyone here obviously has a computer which means we are not actually homeless.

    I don't know,veganism is a good thing but there is too much shit to think about.
     
  18. Misledpunk

    Misledpunk Member Forum Member


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    Veganism is one of the best possible ethical treatment to animals. Personally, I'm a vegetarian(since I'm only 15 doctors say I'm too young to become a vegan) but I can guarantee you won't have any health problem if you follow a vegan diet after 18. I can't see a single drawback for eating or supporting animal cruelty.
     
  19. JBastard

    JBastard Active Member Forum Member


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    The thing is, cats and dogs HAVE to eat meat. We humans are lucky enough to have a choice.
     
  20. nclpw

    nclpw Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I have a friend that tried to feed her pet fruits and vegetables(she`s a raw vegan) didn`t work out very well :p
    It is kinda true though, most vegans I know aren`t really suffering economically, vegan food is fucking expensive here.
     
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