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NATO Summit 2012

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by THEBLACKNOVA, May 19, 2012.

  1. nclpw

    nclpw Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Well I would hardly call it violence on "our" part, I mean people rarely start trashing shit before the police arrives(and with good reasons).
    And when exactly is it right to use violence in your opinion?
     
  2. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Congratulations to all the people that 'hate' the black bloc tactics...you are now officially in league with people like Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh who have re-posted the videos on their websites and raised a substantial amount of hate and conspiracy based misdirection...anarchist propaganda stirring the soup at it's finest...so go on and keep hating you'll find yourselves in great company. :lmao:
     
  3. anarchoskin69

    anarchoskin69 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I'm so tired of all the "police" in our scene. I'm not just talking about informants and agent provocateurs, I mean the anarchos who keep screaming "Dont go to Tampa RNC Protest or Charlotte DNC Protest, ITS A TRAP!" or "Black bloc tactics are ruining the movement". Phhhhh-lease motherfucker, sometimes I think some people are cops, and they arent wearing badges or even communicating with the police, but are doing a way more effective job then the police ever could.

    This guy sounds like the "Peace Police" at the NATO Summit verbatim. Sometimes I think people who are supposed to be "anarchists" have confused outlooks.
     
  4. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    [​IMG]
     
  5. anarchoskin69

    anarchoskin69 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    hahaha butcher, you are always reliable to get me laughing, bro.
     
  6. Danarchy

    Danarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    There are many reasons for attending a Black Bloc protest other than just the protest of the day. The entire purpose of the Black Bloc was not to attract the violent and unstable elements at a protest but rather give ALL anarchists a place and an identity. What many argue is that it actually does the former and alienates many of the latter. I have and been to many BB protests in the past and from my experience would never bring my children to one. Until the BB is a safe place where reason prevales all the BB amounts to is a group of thugs interested in provocation rather than change. Protests, no matter how well attended, do not amount to anything, true change will come from education, community building and establishing an alternative social system, none of which can be built 'on the street'.

    Forget screaming and swearing at the police. Try a pacifist approach. The nation of Islam, for all their faults, Ghandi and others showed what disciplined non-violent protest can achive. The greatest fear of any government is a loss of their military/ police structure into the forces of change. If you believe that military struggle may be inevitable; as I conceed it might be, you can not pursue a military struggle without a military. Military/ police defection has been a long standing tradition of radical change from Cuba to the soviet revolution, the spanish civil war, the french revolution... We must understand that the powers of social control have LEARNED and studied these events and taken steps to secure themselves from defection including brain washing, deployment techniques class/ racial division and other tactics to control the opinions of their forces.

    Any successful evolution to an Anarchist society would INCLUDE the police and military personnel. Many police, particularily those I have spoken to in our small community actually SUPPORT Occupy and share many of my Anarchist opinions though we argue on others. By talking to them in a social sphere, I achieve more in one conversation than a hundred BB protests. I would argue that this is not uncommon particularily where the police/ military are drawn from poverty sticken communities whose symathies lie with their community. If you look at the Arab Spring their greatest success was garnering the support of the majority of the armed forces, many of who joined the rebel forces once armed rebellion became necssary (Libya). None of their achievements would have been possible had the police and military personnel not changed sides. I doubt this would have been the result had there been years of being called 'pigs' 'fuckers' etc prior although I do acknowledge that protests similar to those in our western world could not have taken place.

    I have never said to anyone "do not to go to a BB protest" rather do so without illusions and when your done pissing it up and the protest is over go back to effecting real change in your community. Lead by example, live as an example. The BB should be a celebration of our community not a paramilitary protest. It should stand as an example of our discipline and dedication to a peaceful free society rather than an example of violence and chaos to be used by people like Rush L to point to.

    Before the critics attack and mock. I speak from experience. I have been to MANY BB protests back as far as the late 80's. I have seen changes in the response by law enforcement as well as the participation of BB protestors. I remember when the BB protest was about education, organisation and communication explaining who we are and what we stand for. I don't remember when that became lost only that it has. I live in a VERY small community (5000+/- people), I garauntee that I talk to many people whom the majority of urban punk anarchists wouldn't even consider spitting at; I pride myself at being able to maintain my composure when debating with those who I vehemently oppose; this includes the local police, business people, tourists (of whom I rarely know their real lives) and even evangelical christians who believe that the world was created 2000 years ago. I believe in espousing the values of Anarchism, it's current expression in our daily lives and it's full potential to anyone who cares to discuss it, and some who don't. What I don't like is to apologise, explain or defend violent BB tactics as though they were the strategy and tactics of anarchists.
     
  7. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    I'm sorry Danarchy but this is inherently bullshit, Ghandi in direct contrast to popular belief, would not have accomplished his partial victory without an armed uprising in the North...study that history a little more closely before throwing out his example to folks. Both components being crucial to India's partial liberation from colonialist UK, and they are to this day not free from Caste and Class discrimination and lost a full quarter of their territory to separatist Muslims...

    This is neither an attack nor am I mocking you but I have an even longer history of activism than you do and I know perfectly well that the tactics being used by some BB in the US are an escalation of class warfare techniques that are tried and true, in the 30 years leading up to the Spanish Revolution these methods were employed over and over as a form of anarchist propaganda and insurgency and were much more violent than anything we have ever witnessed here, again both things are equally important to the fomentation of revolution..as an older anarchist and activist I would expect you to know these things and not join in the moderate/reformist arguments that almost sidetracked the CNT from within when they attacked the FAI for the very same things you are complaining about...nothing has become "lost" as you suggest, the actions of smashing windows and paintbombing a Police Headquarters in the Mission district of S.F. may seem petty and insignificant to you but they pale in comparison of the violence doled out to the citizens of S.F. by that same police force.

    Then don't, nobody is asking you to..don't you think you sound just a little bit arrogant in this statement? They are the strategy and tactics of anarchists and have been so for almost 150 years, I'm really sorry that you don't agree with them or think that they are somehow an anomaly but this is part of the anarchist tradition, a part that you don't necessarily have to partake in yourself or even agree with, but don't assume to discredit it either.
     
  8. nclpw

    nclpw Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    besides, you can`t compare the situation Gandhi was in in Asia with the situation we`re in today.
    the things protesters do are a result of the violence they`re exposed to.
     
  9. Danarchy

    Danarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Punkmar77,

    I don't disagree that the violence of BB tactics pales when placed into the historical context of the repression of anarchists. What I was getting at, quite poorly I admit, was that the full responsibility of anarchists goes well beyond the confrontation at the police lines. We may disagree over the validity of the tactics as well as petty vandalism. As I said, I did participate in BB. I stopped when they became focused on police confrontation rather than education, communication and organisation, things may have changed again over the last 15 years. I doubt that we disagree over the need to organise a comprehensive alternative.

    I argue that the energy spent responding to violence at protests, law suits, legal defence, medical aid, counter information etc. is a well placed tactic of the state; kill their resources, kill their movement. They KNOW what you are going to do, they KNOW how much it will distract, they KNOW that they will get some pretty damaging video on the late night news, they KNOW exactly how to handle and manipulate. I have been told this by our local police (RCMP) and by members of Okanagan Tactical Response Unit; they take great joy in knowing how to deal with BB's and discredit them. The G-8 in Toronto is a good example of the manipulative counter tactics employed particularily as they went wrong and the tactics were revealed; those tactics have continuously been employed and developed over decades. The British began developing the current model of crowd control as a police science through their population control employed in Ireland and mainland England. This information has been developed into an international strategy.

    Whether you feel the tactics were relevant 100 years ago, prior to that different tactics were employed; tactics should evolve as society does and as counter tactics do. They have learned; we have not (my opinion). We continue to do the same things that we have for a 100 years but our numbers and the overall understanding of our movement has diminished. They share knowledge and have the financial resources to study their tactics. I would also argue that the BB tactic has changed significantly in the past 35 years, the BB I used to participate in were about solidarity not confrontation. What scares people more the barking dog or the one that just sits growling? Which is more dangerous? The nature of dogs is that barking is a warning to stay away or an alert to others, a barking dog only bites when cornered. A growling dog will bite. I maybe intimidated by dogs that bark, I fear dogs that growl. How do you believe the police would respond to a similar situation, screaming protesters doing the same old thing vs unified, disciplined protesters linked and growling refusing to respond to taunts with sufficiently skill speakers talking in the background using preplanned script/ speeches.

    I do not believe that the BB is irrelevant, I believe that it could be so much more. I believe that we need new tactics, I believe we need new strategies. I believe that we should be looking at what is important. To me, it would be the essential basics of life; food, water, shelter, clothes. Are we, as anarchists, working on ways to support and develop our own supply and manufacturing? Do we, in any way, present an alternative? What is that alternative and how does it fulfill the needs of the greater community? I do see some evolution of information tactics as the young are far better at coping with new technologies than the established powers. Facebook, Twitter, etc. played a phenominal role in the Arab Spring but I garauntee that counter measures are already developed.

    As an alternative, I use Food not Bombs for example, we could supply a very significant amount of food to various FNB's as could the majority of Organic farms, the farmers did for Occupy although not everywhere and many farmers do work with FNB, we donate to a local box service that supplies impoverished first nations families. The issue is labour, we have bills to pay or we loose what little we have; as do the majority. Our ability to produce is only limited by those hands available; more hands, more food. As an anarchist, I would prefer to choose who benefited from the product of my labour but I can't under the current system. I could if more hands were available, more hands to supply product to our financially necessary aspect but also more hands to build a more socially responsible community. There are other examples in other industries but food supply is what I know best, if I knew of Anarchist/ worker cooperatives where I could source many of the products that we require I would certainly do so; currently we look at either home based businesses and independant suppliers/ tradespeople before dealing with chains or centralized distrobution networks.

    I DON'T discredit the BB confrontations. I know that the majority are instigated by the police. It is not arrogant to say that anarchists are held to account everywhere for actions performed in the name of anarchism whether we agree with them or not. In fact, I have seen many examples on this board that do the same with Christians and the American right does so with Muslims. I choose not to generalise people into catagories but this is not a commonly held ideal.

    As I said, I live in a small town. When confronted with examples of BB violence I can typically turn the example back with a similar situation, most here are self identified as christians; there is LOTS of fodder there. I do not blame all Christians for the actions of others, generally, they do not accuse me of being what they see on the late night news. At times it also gives me an opportunity to discuss the systematic use of police as a means of social control. I am not saying that I sit down in a discussion group; although we are working towards that, but their are lots of opportunities to engage my local community.

    I have chosen not to get into a historical debate with this post although I did bring it up in my first post. Ghandi did not achieve a perfect India, the CNT/ FAI had their issues, no comment on the Nation but I already stated they had their faults. I do not feel that anarchists, on this board or elsewhere, are not progessing in other aspects I just feel that too much energy/ focus is on the BB. I am also at fault as I have now spent significant time responding to the BB debate.
     
  10. anarchoskin69

    anarchoskin69 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Man, you're delusional. The permit expired, we linked up with chants and advanced east, because Obama was East, but all the liberals were like "peacefully disperse to the west", using language that the cops even use. So when we advanced East, those linked arms and chants didn't do shit and the riot police came back, shoving batons at us, with a hand on each side of their batons. We fell back, then there was another surge forward where scuffles emerged, because some people got hurt when the police advanced. In that scuffle a riot cop brought a baton down from above on top of my head. Seven staples later and I'm still dealing with peace police, even amongst ranks of "anarchists". WTF?
     
  11. Danarchy

    Danarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Peace police, never been called that, I guess it is easier to call people names than engage in rational discussion. Am I delusional? Exactly how, because I choose not to engage the authorities on their level? Because I choose to focus on real concrete change and develop systems for the free exchange of goods and sustainable independant communities, does that make me delusional. You choose to go to BB protests and allow yourself to be manipulated through planned crowd control techniques, you choose to call me peace police rather than discuss what, I feel, is blatantly obvious, you are being manipulated and controlled; they know exactly how BB's are going to act/ react and have plans and strategies that BB's play directly into the hands of. They want running street battles/ protest riots; they want property damage and a little blood on the evening news; they want people to be afraid to attend protests; they want our ideas and beliefs to be held up to ridicule. Most of all they want us to be so preoccupied with protesting against their authority that we do not have time/ energy/ resources to commit to creating a real alternative.

    You have a bleeding skull, I have smashed teeth, neither of us were right. In 1992 when the baton smashed my mouth and the cops smile glimmered under his helmet I realised that I had played directly into his hands, that I was a pawn in the media manipulation. I am not saying don't, I am saying use the event. Sure the Liberals fucked off, that's what they do, they run and hide because they have as much to protect within the system as the system itself. I would have taken my children and left as well as a responsible parent would; we all know what was coming next. It is played out at many protests and how exactly is it productive? How has your bleeding skull or my smashed teeth taken us anywhere closer to a free society?
     
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