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Veganism

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by A Better World, Mar 28, 2010.

  1. AwaitingImminentCollapse

    AwaitingImminentCollapse New Member New Member


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    Dec 1, 2011
     
    This is true. When I started college I was the only vegetarian I know. (Now vegan for a year and a half) Since I started my parents have gone vegetarian, all of my friends are vegetarian, and now six of my closest friends are vegan. And my vegan friends, have gotten their other friends to go vegan too. It spreads like fire.
     
  2. Inna Ruts

    Inna Ruts Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 22, 2011
     
    so you are just not aware about supporting special interest capitalism by buying all those cooking books, factory produced "clean" foods, dietary supplements, moral tractats and the works of philosophical scene queens like pete singer, not only promoting "animal rights", but by now euthanasy and cross-species-sex too - in his infenite utilitarian infallibleness - he already managed to become a personnongrata in europe and a declared fascist in the eyes of disability organisations and the radical cripples' groups - are you as "anarchic" as him?
    too bad that only european nutrition sciences warns about "going vegan" and parents imposing your fancy favorite malnutrition on children are asking for urgent youth authorities action because of "irresponsible child care"...
    oh yes, children born with a disability are even less than animals, so the decision to let them live on the expense of their parents and the general public isn't a moral one for at least the first month of their being (god father singer)...
    talk about being absurd: adolf hitler too was a vegetarian and full of morals too, and he regarded animals as the better beings...
    try some more practical experience and talk ethics with a predatory animal your size, you'll get quite a proof of it's "equal" instincts, too bad that the beast won't respect your rights to live, but i'm sure you are willing to sacrifice them anyway...
    and of course your moral purity stands above the bourgois background of the vegan fairy tale, started by such enlighted sect founders like donald watson and jay dinshah, eagerly selling books and pamphlets just to make a clean living...
    i would like to know what the 90% humans with a less reliable food access think about your issues, but i guess as an "anarchist" with your kind of insight, you just don't care as long as there is still a guinea pig to be rescued or a stray cat waiting for the peta-needle, living as a castaway pet isn't clean living at all...
    wanna call me a subhuman in your brainwashed misanthropy? not only the capitalist food industry laughs about your ignorant sectarianism... the food chain just awaits your ministry expectantly!
     
  3. AwaitingImminentCollapse

    AwaitingImminentCollapse New Member New Member


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    Dec 1, 2011
     
    I very rarely buy any "specialty" or "vegan specific" products, I usually only buy produce and other foods that happen to be vegan. I understand the gravity of supporting soy based industry and I try to avoid supporting companies that are clearly going after a new demographic in the market. As for Singer, why would his opinion on cross-species-sex or euthanasia have anything to do with what I'm saying. He does not represent all those in favor of animal rights, and even if he did it's pointless to assume that my opinions are directly inline with his simply because he promotes those ideologies.

    Frankly I don't understand the point you're trying to make here. It seems as though you're implying that because I thing that all life has intrinsic value, that I am in some way saying that the mentally and physically disabled are less? Less than what? Here it seems as though you're assuming that ANY biological distinctions are grounds for making moral or ethical decisions. Which I am adamantly against. I don't know how you construed that from what I said. And once again you're comparing me to Singer or assuming that I agree with his point. If you're claiming that I'm ablest I assure you I am not, because regardless of a human-animal's mental or physical ability that are still sentient life that deserves the right to life as any other.

    And you're comment about Hitler, in which you compare him to Singer and in turn, myself (which as I've stated is inaccurate, Singer does not represent me or animal rights on whole) is laughable. You think simply because he was a vegetarian (which in fact he was not, he rarely ate meat) that he would some how represent me or that I would stand in line with his atrocities against humanity. I am not in favor of any rights at the sacrifice of others. You say that he in fact, thought animals were better, again implying that there are levels of value in the spectrum of life, which I have made clear I whole heartedly disagree with.

    I'm not sure if you misread "intrinsic value" as being "instincts" or if you simply misunderstood my statement. Either way, the point im making is that regardless of arbitrary biological differences all living sentient beings have the same right to life. In no way am I saying that non-human animals all feel the sympathy for life, this however, is because they are constantly in survival situations, where (at least for carnivores and omnivores) it is necessary for them to hunt and kill. Which is in no way the current situation that we has human-animals live in, at least in the first and second world.

    Why would I call you subhuman? What would that even imply? Of course, again, you're using it as something that is of less value than a human-animal. Which is nonsensical. You have just as much intrinsic value as any other.

    If I've misunderstood any of you're statements feel free to reply. I hope I've made my point clear.
     
  4. Inna Ruts

    Inna Ruts Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 22, 2011
     
    "of course" you don't make the same mistake every other consumer makes - thats why we had this summer the first major "incident"/scandal of the "wellness food trade" in europe, caused by bacteria-infected - because mass produced - soy shoots imported from egypt and distributed by an "alternative" farm-distro all over the continent.
    but still you promote "going vegan"? - despite you too accept the bloody fact of "companies that are clearly going after a new demographic in the market" - and - again -the understanding of capitalism you pretended to have:
    producing demand/need, increases production, eh?
    talk about changing priorities to escape the trap?
    "of course" the hypocritical mental and economic excesses of pete singer or peta aren't representative for you and your claim of animal rights to be part of being "vegan" - mind me asking where your criticism on petas mode of operation or your protest against singers media-compatible utilitariansim was lost from my view? aren't these accepted facts of commercial lifestylism enough to be very careful with the "vegan" label?
    so why would you pretend to be vegan - if you wouldn't follow the immanent anti-humanism personified in singer as the most prominent and consequent example of well-fed misanthropic western middle class aberrations?
    the vegan fairy tale isn't new at all, hitler learned his promotional imagery after WW1 in the multitude of upperclass hobby sects fooling around with eastern philosphy and dietary salvation... and singers and hitlers mental excesses or "those ideologies" (so singer isn't promoting veganism?) claim the same kind of "morals and ethics" you claim to turn reality upside down, refusing to accept the obvious and ending up with an inquisitor-like:
    au revoir - age of enlightment and conscious self-recognicion, calling for the acceptance of the special responsibility only our species is able to take over for this planet and every living being staffing the natural food chain...
    bonjour - middle age fundamentalism, creation of myths and irrational believe systems appealing to emotions and fears to degrade the unique and - to the present time unmatched - versability of multi-talented homo sapiens sapiens back to animal status - just as if our omnivore evolution never really happened to allow us to grow out of bare instinct:
    hello, social control by "morals and ethics" defying science and reality calling for the liberation of our kind first -
    so we could become free to do whats necessary to keep the planet alive...
    just tell me: isn't it strange - and in a ironic way just too funny - to find this exchance of cooking receipts and happy peer group reassurance in a sub-forum of "RADICAL ACTIVISM"?
    well just again: try to talk "intrinsic" value with an animal predator your size and steered by the instincts allowing the beast to survive according to the abilities of it's species - and i bet you'll get a very final proof for the value of anthropomorph ethics and morals... "rights" are a human concept, unique in mother natures fields of plenty, so don't talk to man-eaters...
    come on, isn't it high time to grow out of childrens books' pictures of the world?
    i wasn't implying that you agree with singers mental abyss en detail, but right now again you prove that the intellectual background of your thinking/better: feeling? - is the very same as his: somehow self-hating (i assume...) anti-humanism and a ragtag collection of irrational illusions made up by a minority culture still dominating and distorting our view of the big picture, just and only to ease the pain of the conflicts of our very hostage-being under repressive authority.
    we still have to work out how the world works and by now we know only a fraction of whats going on around us, but instead of falling for sectarian delusions resulting only in developing the next sub-department of consumerism, we should accept biological facts and the priorities necessary to stop our suffering first - and after that... we'll see.
    i don't need to construct anything out of the strange stuff you deliver so eagerly - alone the usual comparison and equation of humans with animals is just and only daft in face of the obvious difference of consciousness and ability, provided by our biology and proved in almost 250 000 years of successful evolution of our species. we adapted to each challenge coming up and overcame every limit set by nature, no other species was able to achieve what we achieved in our history - and unlike every other species we are able to overcome and mend the damage we've done - while being unaware and distracted from assessing the great picture around us, first lacking intelligence then dragged down by false myths and petty morals used to control and explain the unknown or just the scary stuff around the corner - while the clever people made their profits and the prophets likewise.

    and if you really agree that a human being - wheter or not she or he is born "able" or "disabled" - is absolutely off limits for crazed out moral assessments/contemplation - why do you still degrade our species all the way back from where we evolved from in a long, amazing and very unique way - just because we were eating the animals we hunted for hundred thousands of years and later domesticated and breeded to eat and survive? our species right to live?
    our species responsibility to deal conscious and reasonable with the worlds needs?
    (and what to do with all these "unnatural" species we produced by animal husbandry - will they all get euthanized by peta if the vegan paradise comes up? many of them will never survive without us - so they have no right to live in our care?)
    hahaha, just read stuff that inspired old mcDonald watson, singer or hitler - and maybe you'll be ashamed to find that almost everything you or them are promoting - including your awareness of the vegan business - was already thought and written a long time before the donald watson revival 1944.
    some culture critics/historians claim it was each time something like an reaction to the cultural crisis of the late 19th century, culminating in WW 1 and the chaotic aftermath making the middle class itch again because of predictable WW2 - the termination war watson skipped so successfully refusing to fight fascism out of his morals... absolute value of life?
    i know the stories/doubts about adolfs vegetarianism, but i think it doesn't really matters how often he ate these horrible bavarian (?) sausages - important is the connection of his promotional "moral purity":
    not drinking
    not smoking
    not fucking
    not eating meat
    but loving animals - vegan straight-x-anybody?
    what about those scene thugs beating up drinkers and smokers somewhere mentioned on the forum?
    hitler used a very clever way to appeal to the "emotional" conception of people who never sat a foot into the bloody mess of a slaughterhouse - so "how" could he have ordered all those atrocities - including the euthanasia-program as an "salvation" of "unworthy life" suffering on the expense of the community - singers argumentation?
    "if the fuhrerer only would know of this" - was a very popular german excuse prior to the "we knew nothing of this" phase...

    i didn't compared you with hitler or singer - i say you just fall for the very same trap:
    morals and ethics (and i bet emotions too) - before/against - reality/knowledge and finally: science.
    this way opening the door for every misguided atrocity against mankind or at least agonizing the resistance against them. it isn't funny at all to see all those veganarchypeacepunkmiddleclasskids eagerly preparing foods and heartbreaking images of the slaughterfield they just can't bear to be part of - but what else?
    a few militant youngsters breaking and entering scientific/industrial laboratories and rescuing animals - anything else?
    i don't really want to mention peta business again... or singers recent support for "reasonable" animal experiments at the laboratories of the faculty offering him his convenient crackademic salary... have i missed the "vegan" protests?
    too bad that i already proposed to you again to check your fancy delusion in vitro with an adequate member of an predator species - i understood your argument quite well i think, but it is simply naive and far from being relevant in the obvious reality we share at least more or less:
    nature gives a shit about "rights" - morals and ethics are human concepts without any relevance outside human community - the very reason why we should think twice about food mass production and the abusive and destructive way we deal with nature can't be morals - it's just and only a question of our survival how much of our enviroment we destroy for power and profits and what damage we do directly to ourselves in respects of socio-psychological aspects - everything else is naive and childish bullshit sold by dogooders and clever business prophets only to distract and agonize.
    so you still deny our biological need for B12 and all the other stuff we only get eating meat here and there to prevent neurological and nervous system damage?
    i already mentioned that this central aspect seems to get lost easily outside europe in the mass of literature declaring our omnivore species "vegan", despite the 240 000 years we spend hunting and killing on the tundras and savannas while following the wandering herds? and even then we already managed to terminate some unlucky species because we lacked the means to hunt them efficiently - but that changend with the time and our way of living changed significantly after the end of the last ice age some 10 000 ago -
    but our biology didn't react that fast and by the way:
    back home in france we have some paleolithic caves filled up with bisons, wild horses and deers painted by the hunting tribes some 20 000 years ago... too bad: not a single veggie or nut...
    i admit: this was purely polemic - but i still think it isn't that far from your "human-animalisms" (talk about nonsensical...) degrading our whole species to end up singer-stylish, and the nazis' "sub-humanizing" out of crazed esoterics and the morals of the well feds afraid of themselves and a radical change altering the way of their convenience and apathy.
    we are what we are and no other being is like us or has the opportunities we have - period.
     
  5. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Jan 31, 2010
     
    Oh dear, he brought up Adolf Hitler, that's kinda desperate. Ok, I'll say this again, I haven't taken any b12 or any of that shit for almost ten years and I am not dead. It's bullshit. Where the fuck do you think cows, rabbits and sheep get their b12 from? That's right, shit, so now you can tell me that we are all meant to eat shit, if you want. Let's face it, not a great deal between that and a Big Mac anyways. Are you a complete moron, or what? 1 gram is enough b12 to last one person like five million years. Bet you exposed to more uranium during your life than that. I probably breath in that much b12 walking past a cow field. Whatever, yeast is fine source of b12, it grows on all fresh fruit, and not only that, you can make alcohol out of it too, yum. I advise all vegans to make their own alcohol whenever possible. I grow my own tobacco too, bastard.
     
  6. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Nov 13, 2009
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    What the fuck? :ecouteurs:
     
  7. Inna Ruts

    Inna Ruts Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 22, 2011
     
    hahaha, a country bumbkin, mondieu, and of that of that churchy species too - oh dear:
    for a start:
    "he" is a she, iwan - so there's really no need for daft display behaviours - and "she" has no doubt that the B12-deficiency is already working on you, so let's just wait until it turns you into a complete moron, guess it isn't that far away anymore...
    not only that you are obviously already unable to assess the hitler-argument at all, or just to mention: to reply less desperately ignorant but a bit more than naively dumb -
    let me guess:
    knowledge and arguementation isn't really your thing and in your rural paradise you never heard of george h. whipples and his discovery of a cure for dogs suffering from pernicious anemia, somewhere in the early 1920's?
    he simply started to fed raw liver to them - a research of the reason why this simple cure worked even in hopless cases followed soon, ending up some years later with the first scientific description of the antiperniziosa factor, common to all carni- and omnivore species, the evil beings feasting on herbivores, who get the B12producing microorganisms with the dirt on their plant diet into their digestive system, storing mentionable amounts of the vitamine in their livers.
    i think it was 1934 when george h. whipple, william p. murphy and george r. minot were given the nobel prize for medicine for their work - which soon found some practical use in social medicine projects, distributing cod liver oil amongst poor working class and peasant families who were unable to afford expensive meat to fed their children - this way preventing the effects of malnutrition and B12 deficiency on their kids - that much on social history in capitalism...

    now a bit about your naive fallacy, don't worry iwan, it isn't that complicated, just a bit less ignorant than your:
    sorry, the complete idiot lacking even very basic education is you, this is 6th grade public school learning matter:
    the daily minimum requirement of B12 for an adult is 3 micro grams, pregnant women or breastfeeding mothers have an increased daily requirement of 3,5 - 4 micro grams, due to the stuff they loose to their babies by feeding them.
    the daily requirement goes additionally to the B12-amount re-absorbed in the so called terminal ileum-part of your bowels, situated a bit before the large intestine - where, btw:
    members of homo sapiens sapiens still produce small amounts of B12, which is - like the useless vermiform appendix - kind of a leftover reminder of our long gone pre-human ancestors, strictly vegan apes, sitting with their small brains in the trees of the long gone northeastern african rainforests, once upon a time...
    before they had to leave the trees due to global ecological changes, forcing them in the late pliocene out of their simple convenienceto and to become necrophagous... :o feasting on carrion.

    now it's time to pull your head out of your ass, genius:
    how long will your petty 1 gram last, given a biological half-life of the B12vitamin between 450 and 700 days?

    your future:
    clinical mainifestations of cobalamin malabsorption, pernicious anemia (perniziosa), starting with changes in the composition of the blood and resulting in funicular myelosis - a progressive degeneration of the spinal cord.
    the first non-specific signs of neurologic symptoms resulting from B12 deficiency only briefly covered up by high folic acid supply levels due to strict vegetarian diet:
    tingling and/or a sensation of cold in arms and legs, chronical exhaustion/unusual fatigue and a general sense of weakness over long periods of time, non specific digestion problems, frequent upper respiratory infections, the frequently appearing hyperhomocysteinemia is associated with an increased risk of atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease.
    B12 deficient children and youths have a tendency to suffer from calcium defiency too, due to the fact that the majority of known cases are related with strict vegetarian diet, resulting in clinical problems of bone density.
    babies raised without additional foodstuffs of animal origin suffer from deficiency symptoms already before the 2nd year after birth, becoming prone to chronical neurologic damage, delayed neurological development, apathy, frequent koma and high level brain atropy.
    (btw: the paleontological connection between animal protein supply via omnivore diets, resulting in physiological brain growth allowing increased neuronal networking and resulting from that: bipedalism and the increased tactile skills of our hands - again causing neuronal growth in return with even denser neuronal netting, asking again for more animal protein achieved via tool making and hunting... in the evolutionary history of our species is quite interesting - thanks nature and the boredom of the middle class we developed vegan misbelieves only very late along with food mass production...)
    - now the saucy part for adults - sometimes somehow quite obvious:
    o_O o_O disturbances of the memory and lack of concentration,
    o_O increased penchant for depression,
    o_O increased disposition for delusions (!!!) and psychosis,
    o_O sensorical neuropathy...

    and you are asking for all this fun since 10 years?
    lets hope campolon (made out of the liver of slaughtered animals) will be your savior...

    and finally, as long as you are still able to think with at least a little bit of reason:
    :ecouteurs: how will you be able to "breath in" B12 by walking in the vegan/animal liberated paradise and it's meadows free of cow-slaves? (btw: are you sniffin' cow pats? - just out of interest, it sounds somehow amusing to me...)
    :ecouteurs: how many of those living in urban centers are able to live your fancy country idyll, growing tobacco and fresh fruit for alcohol production -
    are we already a bit off the reality around you?

    oh yes o_O , uranium and wheast from fruits...you are really a funny bastard and jesses is still walking on the water, at least as TV tells you so...
    wanna at least now check out your plasma vitamin B12 to get your low cobalamin status detected, eh iwan?
    ignorance isn't really strength you know.
     
  8. @narcho-Skinhooligan

    @narcho-Skinhooligan Experienced Member Experienced member


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    WOO WOO WOO! Guys please clam down. Let's respect each other. I personally have tried hard, off & on for a couple of years to turn vegan. It is not easy for me since I seem to be kinda addicted to eating meat, eggs, & cheese(I have heard some things about addictive qualities in cheese but have not looked into it.) I have not read all though this thread I just caught the tail end of it & some of the arguing. I am going 2 sleep & start reading this from the beginning in the morning. To me as an animal lover it is a matter of compassion & not food faddist elitism, which I don't think the vegan gentlemen is any part of. AT ALL. I honestly came to this thread in hopes of finding some advice to make my transition to vegan alot easier. & we human beings as a whole tend to be conscious or unconscious speciesists. I once in my youth of about 18 saw a poor Lamb ritually slaughtered in a mosque(& please no comments that MIGHTY sound islamophobic OR be missunderstood as such by any hardline atheist comrades ready to rag on that religion- I know all that stuff & probably agree with most of it anyways, but please, thank you. I know this forum has people with honor & class in it so I am not really that worried about that, an Anarchist should be against ALL forms of prejudice) but back to the poor lil lamb. I saw it's throat slit right before my eyes. I saw it's eyes grow dark as the light of life dimmed slowly from what were once beautifully twinkling eyes. I saw the blood of this poor creature, it's very living essence slip into a drain. It has haunted me all these years now. Oh course as a young man I enjoyed the lamb. it was cooked with many fine eastern spices but in the back of my mind, I could see it's face & it's dying pain! Like it was reaching out to me for help... And their was nothing I could do... :ecouteurs: :/ I think people on this forum might really enjoy this blog http://www.becausewemust.org/ I think it is run by some Str8-edgers. But it speaks of ANIMAL/EARTH/ & HUMAN LIBERATION as a grand unified struggle if you will. They also speak on the wall street occupy & similar occupys else where. They also touch upon issues of institutionalized racism, sexism, & homophobia. Feel free to message me with your comments on it, cuz I haven't read the whole blog myself but it seems good.
    Cheers to all :beer: See you guys tomorrow.
     
  9. Inna Ruts

    Inna Ruts Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 22, 2011
     
    woo woo what? the sound makes the music and asking for trouble is as risky as giving the "dude" thing, forgetting about that not everybody is burdened with testicles and because of that very responsible to the show...
    besides that:
    not a single argument, just some "it's crab" and "i don't know nothing about it, so it doesn't matters" - cheap?

    and in context with your post - i understand the "bambi-complex" coming up each time one of us city kids is witnessing the killing of an more or less helpless animal. i have a number of algerian friends in france, some of their families keep their north-african traditions and habits, eating meat is a very expensive pleasure for sundays and family celebrations, so they eat meat less often than the average european or american, maybe once or twice a week. they buy the living animal on the market, take it home, the patriarch kills it carefully and after that it's cooked and eaten by the family.
    noticing my reluctance and uneasy surprise a very wise algerian simply asked me if i'm too well fed to refuse the nuturing provided by the animal - quite a simple question in the time of discount supermarkets where the urban alienation is on sale?
    how important are our personal emotions in the solving of our socio-political problems?
    how important is heart breakingly suffering jesses on his cross for the appeal of the christian fairy tale?
     
  10. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Omg, shit-doi, you so easy to play with. Wtf, I can't believe you trying to play the sexism card, omg. I was vegetarian for 20 years before that, btw. Actually, I come from a small village in the UK called London, but it's ok, carry on shooting in the dark with your 'Hitler has two eyes therefore all things with two eyes are nazi' grasp on logic. Maybe you'll get lucky. Yeah, I moved somewhere better, cos it's a shit hole. All cities are shit holes, but London is one of the worst. Oh, I agree that five million years was an exaggeration, but I thought that was obvious from the context to anyone with a brain, but as far as human lifespan goes, not a lot of difference between 750 years and five million, is there? You could even say that, in that sense, 750 years is 'like' five million years, could you not? Complicated stuff, I know, but I'm sure you'll work it out in the end. Here, try this: we need such tiny amounts of b12 that 1 gram is enough for the entire lifespans of several people. Is that simple enough? Now keep up, cos I really don't have the time to explain every single sentence. Meanwhile, while you're still drowning in you fallacies, just thought I'd let you know that I got five children, eldest is 22, all vegetarian from birth, and none of them are dead yet, neither. Do you know what a 'half life' is? Question: how long will your petty 1 gram last, given a biological half-life of the B12vitamin between 450 and 700 days? Answer: forever. Not really that relevent since nobody carries a gram of b12 around. I'm bored now. Ok, Anarcho Skin dude, I do respect people, mostly, but if they start acting like dumb shit, I gonna treat them like dumb shit. You right, it's addictive, psychologically for sure. helps if you live with other vegans. Helps if you cook your own food. Helps if you grow your own food. Helps if you remember you not doing it to change the world, you doing it to change yourself. People will give you shit just for being vegan, but since you gay I sure you know how that all works already. Wake up, Shit-Do, veganism isn't a religion.
     
  11. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok, yeah, I sure you can relate to this, skin. I mean, I mind my business as far as veganism goes, it's just a lifestyle choice. But this is a 'veganism' thread, so if I want to tell these people that think I should'nt be vegan (fuck knows what it's got to do with them), and trying to present all manner of bullshit backed up with three million tons of pseudo science to prove that I am doing something wrong, and am going to suffer and die because of it, well they can just fuck off and die, right? Would you put up with that on a 'gay' thread? I mean, I have heard all this crap before, like a million times, over the last few decades. As far as being vegan goes, I am an expert, and anyone that isn't vegan doesn't have a fucking clue, so why the fuck do they continue with the bullshit? They might as well just stick a big sign on their heads that says 'moron: please hit me'. Seriously, cito, how many times over the last thirty years do you think some non-veg type has tried? Do you really think in your wildest dreams that you might have something new to say? Sorry, you just aint that smart. But you know this, right? That's why you try to disguise what you say with several reams of superfluous text. LOSE THE OMNI GUILT, IDIOT. Maybe then you might start saying something meaningful. Seriously, come on, think about it. What is it that makes you feel that you have to hijack a thread on veganism, and attack vegans, and it was an attack. What makes you do that?

    Ok, try this. Who has more to offer in a serious debate on this thread:

    A, people whom have several years of actual experience being vegan
    B, some omni with a persecution/guilt complex armed with a ton of bullshit pulled of the web screaming 'Adolf Hitler'.

    (hint: the latter is called a troll)
     
  12. Inna Ruts

    Inna Ruts Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Nov 22, 2011
     
    too bad, i can't return the compliment, playing with such a bad looser as your is predictable boring, you are just boring, even too dumb to memorize the usual stereotypes of your favorite life style faith and business, burbling, petty dumb insulting and swearing to express your pathologic penis envy -
    guess you really missed out a serious amount of standard education and even common sense, not to mention something like a real life behind all this pathetic scenery - aren't you at least a bit - ashamed of yourself?
    what's the meaning of "bo doi", idiotnik?
    so sexism too is beyond your horizont? did i made a statement about male gentlemen in general?
    wow, again you just don't gettit? kinda poser habit?
    a well meant advice: it's already getting a bit too ridicolous, maybe you should think about to stop making a fool of yourself, even it's your only talent to do so.
    time to grow up from your snivelling pose of eternal puberty?
    let me help you with another ton of pseudo-science dragged from the internet:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism
    and by the way: the "ton of pseudo-science out of the internet":
    CAME FROM A 6th GRADE PUBLIC SCHOOLBOOK!
    but now todays favorite:
    (read slow and carefully, maybe you get it this time,)
    what makes me critical about lifestylism including the "vegan" business:
    the hypocrisy of self-knitted morals and believes on sale, 19th century esoterics including bohemian misanthropy and anti-humanism, promoted by a loudmouthed minority claiming authority without a reason, watering down anarchist philosophy, living off the distraction away from our real problems, preventing people from joining the real struggle by promoting absurd theories and pseudo sciences, brainwashing and deceiving people looking for answers with petty delusions and the promise of community only to open and promote just another consumer lifestyle business already suffering from capitalist risks for profit.
    and about hijacking a vegan thread? mondieu... have a hankerchief? call the cops and the SAS too!!!
    maybe only IF you are vegan, not "only" an vegetarian for 20 years, 10 years with how many "only" vegetarian children?
    have an interesting gem from the tons of "convincing" propaganda published by the ad-department in the internet:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vegans - nice people, eh? maybe a bit above your desperate adolescent posing?
    would they call you a damned collaborator of the animal holocaust, wannabe vegan expert?
    your old problem: where is the argument?
    i get the notion that you really don't get the hitler argument, petty stoner-polemics about bread and eyes won't help with that, somehow i get the whiff too that you have problems with numbers too - 10 years without B12, 20 years vegetarian... (which kind? ovo-lacto i bet - you never learned of the difference in the details of the trade? never got it???)
    the promise of hope in your personal case...:
    ... promptly and brutal frustrated:
    sorry your helpless struggle with numbers is just and only not complicated enough to be at least something like a mystery, it's not even funny, just naive and helpless prattling... wanna talk troll with your brain atropy?
    oh yesss, the unique strenght of the true believer:
    I KNOW BETTER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE... just to bad that there are no "every single sentences" at all...
    oh, your precious time! gotta hurry wasting more time spamming the internets with meaningless ranting...
    let's see:
    nutrition-, humane- and even veterinary-medicine sciences don't mean a thing since almost 75 years, "of course" not because you know nothing about it and/or can't argue against it, BUT just and only because you know better in all that hurry - tell me, do you defy gravity too and your world is still/again a disk and jesses DID walk on the water?
    decades of your lifetime are surely enough to prove something like the little show you staged:
    cluelessness and craving for recognition, what about peer group egotism?
    just repeating the endless meaningless mantras again and again: you're an expert believer, you are...:
    non-believers can't be experts... familiar echo from the dark ages in the 21th century? wanna start a witch-hunt too?
    don't forget about the heretics, the drinkers and smokers or the turnskins like lierre (whyvegetarianismisshit) keith:
    guess you two would make a perfectly matched pair, ranting offtopic but for a reason...
    memory problems? whose fallacies?
    and the answer is wrong, next try - come on, it's simple math...
    and a half life of B12 is (again 6th grade learning matter):
    i bet you were on uranium again? or high on cow pads?
    and i really don't care how much children you have, but i bet you never found out where they come from, sorry:
    plain assertions never meant anywhere anything:
    i claim to have 5 million children since 750 years, living on tons of non relevant stuff and wheat too for another 5 seconds of common sense blackout...
    quite easy, eh? you really should get a grip on yourself, i bet nothing you claim from out of your nervous misery is true:
    10 years without B12, 20 years vegetarian with a 22 years old eldest
    from birth, oh yes, you are really smart:
    not a single argument, not to mention a grain of knowledge from your petty sectarian lifestyle, which isn't really yours at all - assertionsassertionsassertion - kinda habit to bragg around while riding the false train?
    but now the really best part of the farce:
    the reason why your hypothetical kids might still live (i hope far more healthy and competent than their hypothetical father) is quite obvious and simple:
    they are/might be vegetarians, you really made my day, oh favorite idot loudmouth of the month...
    and i bet of the ovo-lacto kind, which would let them grow up nice and healthy, because milk and eggs contain enough B12 to be sufficient for their development, even for adults a quite reasonable diet and health protection, at least of those above the bleeding heart level awareness of the risks of blind consumerist meat over-consumtion or those rare types already preparing for post-revolutionary changes in the priorities of agricultural production - bit too much for you again?

    too bad, this part of the drama makes you a complete and utter moron again, kinda liar and in addition - off topic too:
    being vegan lifestylish is something completely different from being vegetarian, especially from being ovo-lacto vegetarian - shitty thing:
    you still support the animal holocaust! take this one from another of your belief:
    guilty of collaboration and being off-topic - the subject here is V E G A N I S M - o what a bummer!
    vegans will give you shit for feeding your kids with the exploited efford of sentient non-sumfinx beings held in gruesome captivity and beastly tortured in dire and deadly slave gulag captivity due to speciesisms, or what was it:
    you damned collaborator to the daily animal massacre! mondieu! you are really in shit - or just a liar again, or an idiot not even aware of his own blabbering?
    wanna hijack the harmonic sectarian sheeple community just for the feeling to be part of something bigger than you?
    funny thing, maybe it's relevant (but already booring) who brought up the 1 gram? problems with your memory again?
    me too, but i'm still and patiently waiting for an answer - you forgot it? it was: how long will the 1 gram B12last?
    but you have my sympathy, your empty life must be horrible, grusome world and shitty places outside-
    wanna cook vegan a little bit?
    come on, bleeding heart, you treat people like shit just because you aren't intelligent to treat them otherwise, thats not addictive, maybe it's just plain lack of self-esteem, searching for a harmonic group mind on the wrong train and even psychology won't help with that:
    "deprogramming" maybe, it worked quite well for people still lost outside their shitty reality, brainwashing themselves...
    why worry?
    you are only a hypothetical hypocrite ovo-lacto. or at least a hypocritical B12 vegetarian? or just a simple liar?
    quite beneficial to mankind all those blessings and so well fitting under "RADICAL ACTIVISM":
    practically declaring every good housewife a revolutionary... how generous! three cheers to the coming middle class rebellion!
    congrats, you reached the sectarian goal!
    (but out of interest: late symptoms of undigested protestant school education? mental gippy tummy?)
    7 billion people take off into the sunset and to a better place, because all cities are shit holes... again: reality?
    especially for those who can't afford to escape the urban hell... shitty thing if changing oneself is too expensive.
    what do you care? you are a vegetarian! hijacking the vegan community? damned animal murder! - sorry damned non-human-whatever...
    come one, wannabe martyr of the false sect-ion:
    being gay is a sexual orientation, not only a boredom born group neurosis.
    and how smart: hijacking LGBT too... wanna play "suffering under prejudice" and invent veganphobia? how smart!
    right, idiotnik, it's only a shitty commercial lifestyle with sectarian tendencies... you are really an expert in that!
    ... says the person living in peace with himself, being a vegetarian, or a vegan or a lying poser or what?
    shitty thing if the beloved harmony of the believing community gets disturbed by the ringing bell - isn't it?
    it's a sphere of belief - so non-believers out!!! - :o - and off to die too... :o :o
    (where did i say you will die because of your folly - dummy, isn't there pseudo science and evil medicine already waiting for you and your follies, only a convenient telephon call away?)
    lets see again:
    the nobel prize is shit, social history is shit, humane- and veterinary medicine is shit too, not to mention 6th grade school books shitshitshit! but:
    petty belief-systems breed out of bored middle class privilege and really worth a populist business are pure and clean, helpful too for living like a housewife -
    and what the fuck, the non-believers won't let you promote what you are used to use to have something like a life at least when you hijack a community which isn't "yours" at all...
    again: quite desperate, this asking for allies/support from the wrong addressbook - being gay isn't mentioned under "lifestyle" in the yellow pages.
    but at least you got the lifestyle thing, trying to compromise? looks quite a bit odd in all this display drama...
    20 years as a vegetarian... anyone who isn't vegan doesn't have a fucking... so why the fuck continue the bullshit...
    calling for the inquisitors? or the straight-x-bullies?
    btw: i don't hide behind petty constructs like pacifism, morals, nun-violence or anything else keeping me safe from the gruesome world and still free to complain endlessly about all the evil - and i practice krav maga since i was 11 - comes quite handy if idiots run out of arguments and try the last resort, quite healty for personal self-esteem too and pretty realistic/secular, not to mention far less pathetic as you... living in peace with oneself... o_O
    not really, the practical parts are almost 80 years old, common knowledge only ignored by sectarian believers and sheeple in need to retreat from the real world. but this 6th grade public education is obviously already a treat to your very existence, just too much. and be honest, you never had any arguments... call the inquisitors!
    you are just not smart enough to produce more than helpless ranting, denouncing the obvious and spinning tales of hypothetic numbers and children, mixing up things you know nothing about... you aren't the first to do so, shitty thing:
    you don't even know that...
    you are the veganvegetarianihavenothingtosaybecauseinevergotitbutitsnicetohaveanaudienceforiinsultingandbragginglikealesstalentedcomedypuppet-expert.
    and i'm really far below your expertise in self-demolition, i honestly have to admit that.
    something you dragged out of the internets, expert genius, the first time that you spit out the usual stereotypes of your favorite pseudo science? but listen:
    guilt is a religious concept, dear nervous sectarian, i'm a realist, atheist too and not suffering from delusions like good/evil or selfknitted bambi morals. i just don't like to kill living beings, bonehead bambi or not - but i will do it to save my life or the life of others, i might feel unease about it because really i don't like it, but morals and cowardice are for the churchy species of non-somethings only - still unaware about what this life thingy is all about and in dire need for simple mantras allowing them to hide in.
    come on, be honest, in your desperate misery it would be just too much for you and your deficits feeling of masochism rising up, switching from the "only empathic" to "continue to help me degrading myself in the public"...
    is that the reason why you entered the sphere of fraud and believe? waiting for the bell to ring to receive a trashing?
    i'm getting curious...
    getting frustraded again - remember: 20 years of being vegetarian...
    ... high on cow pads and the harmony of the sheeple. immune to anything else outside that , including critiques, reason and reality, but sometimes very knowable and eager about cooking receipts and the simple pleasures of navel gazing, mutual self-assurance, sectarian habits, missionaric drive
    hitler was a troll? because he had eyes???
    i know he too claimed to be a vegetarian and at least he mentioned his love of animals here and there, always treating people like shit, because he never knew better and he might have been even a ovo-lacto-type, but he never understood that - and for sure he used lots of helpless polemics and insults all his life and had pretty yessayers all around him, pretending that he knew something more and treason too, out of the decades of his life time, but he never had even hypothetical children or the time to knit on something relevant or at least not ridiculous or crazed.
    ah yes, he was a liar all the time - and the reports about his last days and his verbal fits about the non-somethings rang the bell for him to have peace with himself - remind somehow strongly of your neurotic outcrazed ranting...
    right, only an idiotnik troll. what a bummer.
     
  13. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Shit, it must be tough being you.
     
  14. Inna Ruts

    Inna Ruts Experienced Member Experienced member


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    believe me, it is - at least with your kind around...
     
  15. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sorry, I'll try keep it simple. Tell me again, was Hitler a vegan (one word answer will suffice)?

    Ok, so it's not guilt, since you some kinda vulcan or something, then what is it? I'm thinking some vegans gave you a hard time in the past? Ex-vegan trying to justify failure (these tend to be the worst)? Let me know if something else, I am actually interested why you are the only non-vegan on this board that feels the need to launch a crusade. Otherwise, I'll just conclude that you do have emotions afterall, and that you are just good at hiding them from yourself (but not to others). Btw I graduated BSc Math/Comp in '92.
     
  16. Inna Ruts

    Inna Ruts Experienced Member Experienced member


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    can you read at all?
    are you a vegan at all?
    no vulcan in sight, and i'm just an adult who learned a bit or two and became able to think for herself and live on her own feet. i'm almost ovo-lactan vegetarian, just trying to keep healthy with a little fish or animal meat here and there - just like people lived some time before the supermarket vegan age - at least as long as somebody is able and interested in researching aspects of our living.
    no, vegans never were able to give me shits, after giving a funny show, they always start just to complain about being persecuted and suffering from prejudices of the meat devourers - just read the stuff you and your yessayers wrote:
    it's just typical.
    crusades are religious business again - will you ever use the stuff between your ears, sectarian lifestylist?
    well, i just don't live off my emotions or get dragged down by cultivating a chronical bleeding heart, make a business out of it - just to feel anything at all.
    time to make your homework, hypothetical clown of whatever trades:
    freshman introductory course-class: argumentation...
    (per chance: you aren't santa too?)
    and before you feel the need to ask - believe me:
    i hardly ever sat one food into a college building and rarely came even near a university :ecouteurs:
     
  17. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    No, I aint Santa, but all the stuff I said about me so far is true. Whatever, you know you aint really supposed to insult the 'person' in a reasoned debate, just what they actually say. Take note, I have so far said nothing bad about you being female, french, your family, etc. Actually, I think you doing a fine job on the language barrier, much respect for that. Hmm, so why the OL veg thing at all?? I detect the guilt thing there again. In 10 years you be vegan, maybe when you finally discover that it's the healthiest way to go, as long a you not stupid about it, I think, but the problem is that the vegan self righteous bullshit really pisses you off, right? Yeah, me too. The prejudice, for sure, that exists. On the whole, I don't proclaim my veganism, cos it makes my life more difficult. Not up there with racism etc, maybe, but even so, shouldn't be there at all, should it. Your use of the word 'hypothetical' is a bit odd, too technical. Yes, organised education is bullshit, I agree. Just about everything I learnt was obsolete by the time I left. Three years hands-on experience would have been worth much more, if I'd wanted to take that route, which actually, I didn't, so nothing lost, really. Don't knock emotions, they rarely lie. If heart and mind are not in tune, likely you are doing something wrong. These just my words which you can take or leave, I dunno how much they worth.
     
  18. Caps

    Caps Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sorry to pull this back a bit but what's with all the aggression? Do you actually think that it is WRONG to be vegan? Isn't it a perfectly acceptable moral choice for an individual to make?

    First thing I'd question is: Have you've actually read Singer or just know him by reputation? He's not perfect, I certainly don't agree with him on everything, but he raises interesting arguments. He never said that disabled children are less than animals. He did say that severely disabled children, with a very poor quality of life, should be killed if their parents feel this would be the better choice for their own well-being and to stop the child suffering any further before it fully develops consciousness. The argument is a little more detailed than this but the point is clear. As Singer has said countless times, he does not want to lower any human life to the level that we treat animals but to raise the level of standard for animals - and not necessarily to that of human's either but to a point where they do not have to suffer for our amusement or enjoyment. He is also definitely not an anarchist. However, he does show a certain amount of philanthropy, or charity at least, recommending that people should donate a notable portion of their earnings to humanitarian causes - I think focusing on aid to developing countries rather than animal assistance projects but, again, leaving it to individual choice. I don't agree with him on this, it's not a solution to our problems but its better than doing nothing. Regardless, he fails to promote advancement to alternative social organisations. I still think there's much to take from Singer, though, but that's just me.

    In essence, I can see veganism as compatible with anarchist philosophy. If we are opposed to exploitation and abusive hierarchy, why would this not include animals or, even, the planet? I don't mean to treat the earth as a living entity or animals as equal entities (you're not going to ask a horse to put forward its views on transportation at an anarcho-syndicalist council or, to modify your example, a wolf how many chickens or humans it should be allowed to consume), however they should be given compassionate consideration. I would hope this would lead most people to vegetarianism, at least. Besides this, there are the environmental and food distribution arguments to support a meat-free diet. I'm not saying it's water-tight but I can't see how anyone can be actively opposed to the vegan diet (though I would accept that when using specialist goods it does become the privilege of wealthier society).

    Hitler, by the way, was not a vegetarian. He loved a bit of German sausage. However, he did not eat much meat and was a huge lover of dogs (even if he did kill his).

    Ultimately, I can't see why animal rights have to conflict with human rights (and I use these terms loosely - this is not direct advocacy). I think they can be complementary. I think the drive has to be advancing human society and that will go hand-in-hand with improving the lot of animals. Ultimately, it's an individual choice and I believe use of animals should be something everyone should consider seriously.
     
  19. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Dude, I think shes buggered off.

    "I can't see why animal rights have to conflict with human rights" - Yeah, as far as I know, humans are animals.
     
  20. sali(e)

    sali(e) Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Good for you Ivanovich, going back and forth. <3 Although, I do not agree with your anti-fat people stance, you did well holding the line here ;)

    The meat and dairy industry is in huuuuge violation of human rights as well.
     
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