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Civlization is the real enemy

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by skulldrix, Nov 5, 2011.

  1. Crimecore

    Crimecore Active Member Forum Member


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    I never at any point said I was against all forms of technology. See, here's the thing, we have doctors, people who know how to and run water treatment plants. I never at any point claimed to have a problem with filtering our water. I do have a problem with flouridating water systems however. I did not claim to be for the abolition of health care. How do people become doctors and surgeons. They train to be them. Thus, it is entirely possible that with the same training one would recieve now, some people on this board could become doctors or surgeons. I'm not sure what you guys and gals think I was proposing, I'm pretty sure I only proposed we should reevaluate what is essential technology, and which isn't. I obviously do not have a problem with computers, but feel sick to know that there are predator drones flying around killing people. I do not have a problem with utilizing our air, sun, and water to harness electricity, but I do have a problem with nuclear power and warfare. I'm sorry if I had actually said anything to insist that we all just quit our jobs and go sit in the woods till bugs eat us alive. And for the record I don't think it's ok to bomb the fuck out of people because they were loosely involved with vaguely destroying our earth. Oh, and before I forget, I simply do not think it's ok to stop the production and distrobution of medications for AIDS and other serious illnesses. It however is not ok, in my opinion, to develop above said virus in a laboratory setting and purposefully release it into the public. I think that some jobs are very important, I however feel that mine, is not. Want to solve a bunch of health problems without medicine or medical treatment? Abolish fast food.
    Finally, I wish that people would understand, that in any form of radical power shift, in any region/state/country it would be most important for people who specialize in practices required for human sustainability, continue to do what the always have. A doctor would continue to help people, pilots would continue to be the only people to fly aircraft, I would still depend on a mechanic to fix my car...and if I'm smart, try to learn how myself as well. Sorry if I made you think I was talking shit.
     
  2. Crimecore

    Crimecore Active Member Forum Member


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    If it helps to clarify where I'm coming from, I'll describe the region in which I live.
    100 Miles to the southwest lies Oak Ridge, Tn. The birthplace of the atomic bomb. This entire city was so secret that for years it wasn't on maps, even though it was the 5 largest city in the state. It's been called Tennessee's Secret City, amongst other things.
    In Kingsport, Tn roughly 35 to 40 miles from where I live now(and also my former hometown) you have Eastman Chemical Company, and BAE systems, formerly known as Eastman Kodak, and Holston Defense. Eastman Chemical makes plastics and all kinds of other goodies. If the smell of this place weren't enough to make you sick, our cancer rate is abnormally high when compared to other regions in the United States. BAE systems specializes in creating explosives from the British, and United States militaries. I remember in my old house in Kingsport, we had, like almost everyone else, weekly city wide tests of the emergency gas leak sirens and a magnet given out to us by the chemical company, that we placed on our refridgerators that read
    "In case of dangerous gaseous leak, our alarms will sound and everyone in this residence has __ seconds/or minutes to shut all vents and windows and to get themselves to a safe room until you are notified by emergency agencies on further instructions" Now, depending on your address, you had more or less time than others, based on your location relative to the plant. My home had 11 seconds. Ouch.
    Recently, in local news they have been convincing not to worry, and urging us to cease calling the police when the ground shakes. You see, BAE systems like to blow shit up underground. People hear it, and call the police. We are assured everything is fine. It is also important to note that Bays Mountain is packed full of expired ammunitions and weaponry.
    In Erwin, Unicoi county Tennessee, my current home, we have Nuclear Fuel Services. They specialize in taking nuclear waste from all around the country and putting it in barrels which the material eventually breaches and leaks into our mountains. They still find enriched uranium in our water and soil. Of course when the company does tests, no problems or violations are discovered, and when the EPA finds something, well hell, there's not going to be much of an EPA anymore after all the cuts they're taking. It's nice sitting outside 5.5 miles from cell phone reception and having the quiet interrupted by sketchy ass government planes flying far too low to believe. They just come right out of mountainsides, from fucking nowhere.
    On the issue of disease, they typically run their course and back off for a time, and then after they've had time to evolve, they may come back again. Many people die at the hands of disease, and probably always will unfortunately. But certain things we do make them much more dangerous than before. We use things like hand sanitizer compulsively to where our bodies lose their good germs as well, and while doing so we also aid in the hardening and evolution of the germs we're trying to stop. We also have placed a lot of the most dangerous one's into concentrated areas like the CDC. Imagine if there were to be a breach there...I don't want to imagine that.
    In closing, I have a general distaste for certain technologies and because my life is directly affected by them, I have the right to express that distaste.
     
  3. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    I see absolutely no problem with any of that Crimecore...carry on.
     
  4. nike

    nike Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    i have no problem with reasonable people giving their opinions/attitude backed up by knowledge and based upon our more or less common realities. almost everything is debatable, there is no thing like an absolute truth and one of the very healthy aspects of forums like this is the continous questioning of everything except openly fascist statements or points of view.
    i do have a problem with people trying to explain the itch of their individual personal real-life deficits via some weird pseudo-philosophies or theories disregarding history, science or everydays experience and sanity & reason or common sense - and i guess the examples we had on the board speak for themselves... fan girls and boys jumping fancy pop-hypes and starting to promote the weirdo stuff without the least trace of knowledge about specific background or at least the basics of politics, not to mention "anarchy"...
    the problem of these "anti-humans" isn't "civilisation", but their own personal incapacity to deal with their individual day-to-day life - instead of sitting down and think about themselves they fall for the pseudo-explanations of commercial writers, nothing but ambitious scene-queens and wannabe-leaders making up their own version of un-reality to sell - and in regard to historical phenomena like the anti-modernist itches dating back to the 17th century and ending up in catastrophes like german nazism the reactionary and more or less fascist tendencies of such a distorted view are more than obvious: misanthropy, reversed racism and the dishonest promise of just another paradise in the clouds...
    i think we don't need this stuff and we shouldn't tolerate it's promotion on the board - we oppose fascism on a common agreement nobody is forced to accept - so what's wrong with opposing proto-fascist delusions like the examples we had here?
    technology and modes of production are neutral by nature and their abuse for profits-only under capitalism doesn't mean that they are "evil" or expressions of a malign culture or "race" steering towards global destruction after we fell from grace and out of an illusionary paradise...
    there are seven billion people out there with a fucking right to live, eat, drink, learn, work and enjoy entertainment the way it pleases them - who are we - a minority living in our sometimes boring privilege in the developed countries - to decide what's good for them?
    there is more than enough food in the world, thanks to the development of technology and the improvement of production modes, the problem isn't our deficit as the "dominant" species but the economic system and it's power structures abusing the achievements of mankind - and the solution isn't the relapse into barbarism and the survival of the fittest but the overthrow of the state and with that the abolition of capitalism - after that we are free to find out whats necessary to keep and even to develop further and what we can get rid off - and yes, nuclears are a first priority to abandon in an adequate way.
     
  5. Crimecore

    Crimecore Active Member Forum Member


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    I completely agree. Inherently flawed idealistic worldviews are especially easy to create in surburban America. Everyone around here thinks they know what's best for not only everyone in this area, but the rest of the world.
    I've always been upset about the nature of our economic dependencies in northeastern Tennessee. I think to deal with how it makes me feel, I end up writing anticivilizationist songs, poetry, and quite frequently have thoughts about it throughout the day. That being said, I have a firm grasp of the reality of the world's situation and understand that the nature of my thoughts and "art" is benign. An expression of how this place makes me feel, not what I may view to be a realistic approach to a solution. I thought it would be important to point that out, lest the way I present myself on here to seem primitivist in nature.
     
  6. Bentheanarchist

    Bentheanarchist Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    I agree that nuclear weapons and bombs and predator drones are bad but I don't think Civililization is.
     
  7. JBastard

    JBastard Active Member Forum Member


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    Well yeah, anything capitalism gets its dirty paws on, it fucks up. As much as I dislike the British government, the NHS is a hell of a lot better system than an Americanised private system, because it provides the same level of care to everyone for half the cost. No profit motive involved, and as if by magic, it becomes almost twice as efficient. According to free market capitalists, the opposite should be happening. Now imagine a system that didn't have to pander to external private companies for medical supplies or ambulances and such, and was free of government bureaucracy. There's no reason we couldn't have world class healthcare under anarchism, as long as the bloody luddites aren't allowed to take over.

    Ok, this makes sense, but none of this has anything to do with Primitivism... Primitivists do not like specialisation (ie, professional doctors, technicians, scientists) and view civilization and technology as a problem that must be overcome. You don't need to label yourself with nutters because you don't agree with flouridating tap water or nuclear weapons! A lot of scientists agree with you on those points (although there was some talk about the benefits and risks of floridating tap water, most places avoid it because there isnt much benefit to be had regardless).

    Albert Einstein lamented his involvement in the atomic bomb, he never wanted to be connected with mass murder. But (who else?) the government and their contractors wanted otherwise. I can't imagine what having something like that on your shoulders must feel like. And that man was most certainly not a Primitivist.
     
  8. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    the term "civilisation" is quite difficult - in europe it's used almost synonym with "culture" and describes a distinct pattern of cultural (including technological) development. from this point of view "civilisation" is inevitable as soon as two humans start to do things in their own/distinctive way - so even our earliest prehistoric ancestors had their different civilisations ending up in todays multitude of languages, religions and believes, customs and traditions.
    there were several reinterpretations of the term "civilisation" - the worst came up when "civilisation" was used in opposition to "barbarism" - thus declaring the supremacy of developed countries and their culture about the less developed cultures in the later colonies, covering the exploitation with the noble intention to "raise the barbarians" up to a civilized level.
    Nike mentioned fascist tendencies - the germans of the late 19th century developed quite a special: the differentiation of the - regarded as profound and valuable - "german culture/"essence" from the "rest" of western civilisation in europe and north america which was regarded as superficial, effiminate and feeble. lots of the primo-arguments about "dehumanisation" via civilisation were already used by writers like oswald Spengler and arnold Gehlen critisizing "civilisation" - and from their point of view it wasn't that far to the aryan supremacy embodied in the german "master race"...
    after the war it became silent about this romantic prelude to the holocaust, but in the early seventies konrad lorenz wrote about the "8 deathly sins of civilisation" - his main point in short: humans follow their natural genetic program conflicting with the basics of "civilisation", so overpopulation, violence and ecological destruction are resulting from being civilized - sounds familiar?
    lorenz was bitterly critisized for his moralisation of sciences, including using terms like "good" and "evil" - after his nazi-membership and career in the 3rd reich became known, critics blamed his depiction of criminals and rebels against society as "cancerous ulcer" and "parasites" to be a relapse into nazi terminology...

    actually reading two books of primatologist franz de waal about his observation of chimpanzees in nature and captivity
    ("the politics of chimpanzees" and "The Age of Empathy: Nature's Lessons for a Kinder Society" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frans_de_Waal)
    i would say the primos are deeper in shit as ever:
    chimpanzees not only wage war to annex rival territory, kill male foes and eat enemy babies while sparing the females, they use tools and weapons in varying degrees and teach their youth their use, they have their distinct social system too, up to an "macciavellian labyrinth of alliances and deception/counterdeception", more or less complex depending on group size and life circumstances - almost like us humans?
    weird, they never developed agriculture... o_O
     
  9. Crimecore

    Crimecore Active Member Forum Member


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    Yeah, but as I've stated, I undoubtedly have tendencies to have anticivilizationist thoughts, write lyrics/poetry with a similar theme and bad mouth the hell out industry on pretty much a daily basis...but you're right, I'm not a primitivist.
     
  10. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    funny thing:
    Turned completely to the opposite after the war, his cousin reinhard made "the paperclip" to the U.S., had a CIA whitewash and became the first president of the german secret service BND.
    arnold promoted in the meantime his theory of humans as inadequate beings, happy and constructive only under domination, leadership, will and accomplishment - barely able to live without man made hierarchies and the instituionalized believe in family, country and state...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Gehlen
     
  11. nike

    nike Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    oh yesss, and today a certain trinity of baby-bonobos fooled me inna truly epic after i tried to trick them into a bit disciplined patience... now everybody else is still laughing at me because i still don't get the who's who they used expertly against me... these are modern times!

    @crimecore
    some way to read your poetry/lyrics somewhere? you aren't on trial here... :ecouteurs:
     
  12. Crimecore

    Crimecore Active Member Forum Member


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    Kinda felt like I was to be honest.
     
  13. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    my dear:
    o_O disregarding the biological fact, that all three are young'n'proud homo sapiens sapiens,growing out of their inborn instincts to become quite able to deal with modern times,
    :ecouteurs: calling them BIG GIRLS "babies" AND trying to fool them...
    :o then blaming THEM for fooling YOU...
    smells quite like arnold gehlens "concerned idea"?
    making you the laughing stock isn't enough, i guess i'll have a hour with your rebellious favorite...
    most of us are anti-nuclear, oppose the waste of fossile energy sources, support the introduction of renewable energy, along with energy-saving measures in technology and architecture, critisize extensive agriculture, low quality industrial production of consumer goods and food and try to get around consumerism and throwaway-society - because we are responsible and adult minded human beings.
    we are just refusing to die in a stoneage illusion, just because modern times are as horrible as humanity's past times - and we want to use the tools to make a better world for all, it took long enough to develop them.
     
  14. Crimecore

    Crimecore Active Member Forum Member


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    If shit gets bad, you're more that welcome to hide out in the mountains with me and my family. We'll just have to build some houses, that's all.
     
  15. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    too bad: due to our position against NATO and US-nuclear weapons in europe we are
    "undesirable persons" - some years before we tried to get a tourist-visa because a family members funeral - but we were refused.
    thank the fates our alps at home aren't that far and full of Nikes collectivist comrades...
     
  16. nike

    nike Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    you can apply any time for an unlimited residence permit to the general gathering of residents.
    yours only duty is to look after yourself & others too and help us fight off the weekend-flintstones, if they go on killing rampage again.
    and of course you can bring the dressed in black papa bear along, and his favorite tall grown, constantly shape shifting and naturally high polar bear girls too - respectively any other lifeform they choose to be in the futures.
    this is how it looked like before the darn anarchists came and brought the forests back:
    [​IMG]
    this is how it looks now:
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    ? :ecouteurs:
     
  18. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    guess the pic is broken, the link works, but nothings coming up...
    hahaha, you just want to lure us poor urban babel boyz&gurls out in those horse-infested woods...
    [​IMG]
    but them darn anarchist did a great job on their grounds, re-foresting the area with a healthy mix of deciduous trees and conifers after some freak storms devastated the almost lifeless forestry monocultures in the mountain regions during the 90's - thus giving insects and forest animals their natural habitat again and preventing the further erosion of mountain slopes.
    and they even refused to accept state support or the "solidarity" of the local green party trying to jump the train...
    now lets see if we can wake up papa b. and his bear cups from winter's sleep... :ecouteurs:
     
  19. nike

    nike Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    hippophobia is reactionary! (and canophobia too!)
     
  20. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    The fact that primitivists/anticiv activists are writting that behind a computer screen, using internet and electricity is just the proof that most of you are confusing "primitivism" with "economical decreasing" (not sure of the word, in french it's called "décroissance" and it's a movement of people who want to progressively decrease the use of modern technology in our society, but not at the point of living in the forest with nothing like the primitivist THINK they want but would never be able to apply it on themselves). It's just a rebellious phase of your life, someday you will grow up and realise your ideas are too radical and you will be more realist. I've met thousands of anti-capitalist activists in my life but i have never met a single primitivist/anticiv who was able to really apply his ideas on himself.
     
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