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Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Discussion in 'Anarchism and radical activism' started by badman, Jan 29, 2010.

  1. Bentheanarchist

    Bentheanarchist Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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  2. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Heard of it too some time ago as a rumor on the limits on conspiration-bullshits, Spielberg made it popular with his "Munich" movie (2005) but no proof has ever been clearly established - so it's still only a rumor.
    Interesting aspect of the movie:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_(film)
     
  3. nike

    nike Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    err, yes - i definitely have a languag problem, so thanks for clearing up the missunderstanding, i don't go that far with karl murx but you went in the right direction, comrade peoplez commissar, and here are the your lumpens just for that:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumpenproletariat
    the german version is far less detailed about the issue between the anti- and the authoritarian positions, not even mentioning the passionate fight between Mikhail B. and m-brother karl, but there's somethings about "socialist eugenics" which is another horror the "good" reds brought up.
    still have to rediscover the web-site covering the commented correspondence between Bakunin and marx very well- maybe it would help to understand that Leo Bronstein just made the lumpen matters more worse than karl ever did, incurable petit bourgeois squallers those trots...
    the bolshevic eagerness to fill the "baffled silence" wasn't a healthy idea in my opinion - maybe it's necessary to wait until a sufficient level of mass-consciousnes/political horizont is reached, just to evade the problem of "necessary" leadership? Volin anybody?
    maybe, but it's a much harder way to go for the individal taking risk after risk - but i agree if it's necessary because there's no alternative.
    you've been there too tawarishch commissar - in tinseltown?!
    is preparing his political career since years, much too eager for not getting in trouble with his rivals and i heard rumors that a new armed offensive in Gaza might be his and netanjahus way out of the "intern" crisis - some friends confirm the rising activity in the Gaza skies, i really hope the coming september isn't getting too hot...
    agreed, it was the only thing to do to prevent a useless massacre - i only ask for adequate tactics and don't condemn non-violence in general - and:
    i never wanted to say that a movement is "wrong" or "not revolutionary" if it can't win/succeed:
    the history is a history of class struggles and even if we didn't won by now, we're still right to fight for it.
    the problem is tactics and perspective - or better "general overview" about the avaliable options to act according to whats necessary, not to mention the radical will to end all misery by it's very root. (so i'll search the dictionary to find a better word).
    the CNT/FAI might better have re-considered the conventional war against an enemy benefiting from far greater firepower and training, just too bad that Ascaso died so early and Durrutti fell only for Zaragoza and finally in Madrid - they should have remembered the spanish independence war 1807 bis 1814... and waited for WWII.
     
  4. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I was kinda referring to Marxist orthodoxy inre: historical materialism. I think Lenin and Voline agreed, unlike the Mensheviks, that it wasn't necessary for ppl to sit by and wait for Capitalism to run its course before making the revolution. And yeah, I kinda remember Voline's observation to be that the anarchists didn't have the organisational capacity to smash the Bolshevik counter-revolution, one that is instructive. So yeah, organisation/consciousness/whateva you wanna call it is necessary, but the waiting for the right economic circumstances (whatever the fuck that means) ain't.
     
  5. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    agreed, but on the other hand:
    WHO made the october revolution despite being unable to read the theoretical stuff and being unaware of the pleasures of collectivism, and after that:
    Was there an alternative 'xcept to fight the bolshevists openly and risk a civil war in the war against the white counter revolution?
    The same goes for spain after the stalinists started fighting the militias and collectives:
    Winning the war and the revolution was a fine idea, Nike Mikhailovna, but the realities weren't that fine...
    There's again a big "IF" problem:
    First it wasn't clear/predictable if the fascists would be strong enough to take the initiative - with Franco's moros were still locked up in Marokko and the germun and italian fascists not entering the fray by then - so the conventional way to deal with the still weak and isolated uprising by organized force of numbers could have been successful despite there was always a lack of arms and equipment, but requetés and falange weren't that brave and well trained/organized. BUT:
    The situation became worse when the germans air-lifted the moro's and foreign legionaries from africa over to spain and even more worse after the nutzi-legion condor and muzzelinis Corpo Truppe Volontarie arrived and the sea blockade began.
    Only after that Franco had the means to keep the initative and go to the offensive, concentrating men and firepower where ever it pleased him to attack - the rest is sad history - :'(
    Guerilla warfare was successfully practisized here and there - but leaving the land open in general just to avoid a conventional war wouldn't have helped with this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Badajoz
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_%28Spain%29
    There was a need to defend territory and keep the fascists away from the people as long as possible - call it a practical constraint.

    Only a week or so, then they had enough of me and the N.S.C. took me an' my baby away, later we got a free lift to the egypt Sinai-border and a big "denied admission" stamp on me poor life, guess they are still sulking and I dunno why...
    Any reliable/official source/report/documentation?

    @ comrade Gobblez:
    <3 <3 <3 !!!
     
  6. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Necessary addendum:
    Allwayts listen to your butcher! :thumbsup:
     
  7. nike

    nike Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    [​IMG]
    jawoll, comrade sir, i will always listen to the butcher

    serious:
    in my view of marxist orthodoxy i thought of karls explanation of the "productive forces" - and because i can't really put it into eeenglesh, i'm stealing it from gerald cohen:
    following this i always thought that the main problem of the october-revolution was the still small minority of educated industrial workers able to organize themselves - and i still think that voline gave an impressive example of this aspect with his report about his refusal to "lead" a workers council in leningrad "because it's the workers job to liberate himself".
    after some local discussions in which i found myself primarily opposed by a certain agent of the komintern i have to admit that i might have underestimated the importance of the crisis 1917 because of the war - and the fact, that the revolution was made by the russian proletariat BEFORE the bolsheviks returned from their swiss exile.
    i guess i made the same mistake concerning Spain - yes, again i was ignorant of the "strategic" situation in july/august 1936 and of the peoplez will expressed in the slogan "No Paseran" and taking the words into direct action... so talk about necessary education, i have to say: sorry!
    (my sentence from the peoplez courts: re-reading Franz Fanon and contemplate about this:
    & this one:
    WOW, that's wild - how you did manage to get in the upper league and make them that touchy (free ride as in "deportation" & "denied admission" as in "forever banned"?!)
    somewhere in the net is an article written by an israeli journalist mentioning the possibility of a predictable "distraction" netanjahu and the likes of him might come up with, he mentioned reports made by "people working in the civil air surveillance" - sadly i lost the mozilla-chronik because somebody disabled it.
     
  8. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    except when you shouldn't.
     
  9. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    To revert to previous discoz...
    I hadn't heard that one (do you mean daddy or son Bush btw?), anywayz, its important to note that its not only Bush's fault Pinochet never got brought to trial, here's a brief overview of the end to Pinochet's regime from a Chilean companer@:

    There wasn't any real political will to bring Pinochet to trial in the post-Pinochet 'democratic' Chile, he stepped down completely on his own terms, and it makes it a bit difficult to bring crimes against humanity charges against someone who served as your Chief of Army for six years...

    Bush (either) is but one bastard amongst a rather large pack of them.
     
  10. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    there are no 'xceptions westwards of historical materialism & there is not a single flaw in scientific socialism :ecouteurs:
    Oh dear.... Not that butcher, Nike Mikhailowna: The other one!
    Report back to your indoctrination advisor and apply for some extra volunteer shifts in the coal mines to help you realizing your lack of insight into scientific communism and your deviance from socialist behavior.
    Again:
    Q: Who chased all those evil fascists all the long way from moscow back into the garbage bin?
    A: -
    Germun passport with syrian/lebanese transit visa and (don't laugh) an unpaid parking ticket - were the first act, some literature in my pack boxes on the motorcycle brought the NSC into play, rounding up the second act and everyone I knew, finally a few days spent exchanging a bit one-sided pleasantries in custody completed the drama - hava nagila!
    There was at least some will to give him a wiff of justice, Baltasar Garzón from Spain and those brit's 1998:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pi ... _and_trial
     
  11. Bentheanarchist

    Bentheanarchist Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    George H.W. Bush and his government demanded Augusto Pinochet be released.
     
  12. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Israeli officials hint at violent response to Palestinian statehood demonstrations
    by Ira Glunts on August 3, 2011

    Could the Arab Spring come to Israel this Fall? Will IDF soldiers emulate Syrian troops and kill unarmed Palestinian protesters who are demonstrating in support of a United Nations resolution for Palestinian statehood? Israeli Member of Parliament Shaul Mofaz warns that he expects there will be disturbances during the statehood demonstrations and they “can potentially turn into a violent, painful event, with unclear results.” Mofaz predicts that his government will call up the army reserves to protect its Jewish Israeli citizens.
    The Palestinian Authority is planning peaceful mass demonstrations starting on the evening of September 20, which officials hope will be the day before the United Nations General Assembly votes on a resolution to accept Palestine as a member state. Recent non-violent protests such as the naqba, naksa, flytilla, and flotilla demonstrations have been met with Israeli military and police violence, in some cases lethal.
    Recent actions have shown that for the Israeli authorities the presence of non-violent protesters is intolerable and that Israelis think that it is legitimate to stop demonstrations even if this means killing defenseless civilians. Any murders can be justified by the claim of pre-emptive self-defense. Hey, we have our own Jewish “Arab Spring” here. The flotilla activists posed an existential threat to the naval commandos, right? Or the Palestinian demonstrators presence at the gates of the settlements is an unacceptable provocation. Sure. It is difficult to believe, but some call this criminal behavior “purity of arms” and say that these assassins are the most moral army in the world.
    According to Ha’aretz, the Israeli Chief of Staff, Benny Gantz told a parliamentary committee that he and his men will protect the country from the non-violent Palestinian protesters who go near nice Jewish neighborhoods in the West Bank or god-forbid try to enter Israel. Gantz makes it clear that Israel will not tolerate protesters who come to close to its Jewish citizens.
    I do not discount the possibility that some of the statehood demonstrations could turn violent. However, I get the feeling that the IDF is preparing to act with the lack of restraint for which it has become increasingly known. This does not bode well for a nice peaceful Jewish Arab Spring this Fall.
    http://mondoweiss.net/2011/08/israeli-o ... tions.html
     
  13. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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     United States
    Two Israeli airstrikes hit Gaza City


    The Israeli airforce has confirmed that it dropped two bombs on Gaza City Thursday morning, claiming that two shells had landed in the desert in southern Israel fired from somewhere inside Gaza

    [​IMG]


    According to local sources, the airstrikes hit a beachfront facility used by the armed wing of the Hamas party, and a training camp used by the same group.

    The missiles were fired by US-made F16 fighter jets, which roared over the crowded neighborhoods of Gaza City in the early hours of Thursday morning, causing residents to duck for cover.

    The planes then dropped their payload on the deserted training grounds, causing no injuries but destroying the facilities.

    After homemade shells fired from Gaza injured an Israeli on Tuesday, the Israeli military issued a statement saying the army "holds the Hamas terrorist organization solely responsible for any terrorist activity emanating from the Gaza Strip."

    According to the Israeli military, the two shells fired Thursday night into Israel reached further than previous homemade shells - one of them hit the ground near the Israeli city of Ashkelon.

    Shells fired by Palestinian fighters from the Gaza are fired blind, since they have no aiming capabilities. The crude homemade shells have been termed by some Gazans as 'glorified firecrackers', as they are basically metal pipes shot over the border with Israel with no explosive capabilities
     
  14. KimSalabim

    KimSalabim Member Forum Member


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    Anyone in need of a definition of a police state should go to a peaceful protest in Palestine.
    Try getting arrested. I heard a lot of nice stories. Hello Orwell!
     
  15. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    a quote taken from libcom, here's a reply:
    *edit: a direct quote from someone on libcom, not a farcebook friend of mine...
    inre tent #48 :)

    however the murky details inre: this confrontation, taken in combination with Vassily & punkmar's comments leaves me feeling :/
     
  16. nike

    nike Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    A:yesyesyes, the red army did it, sir tawarishch commisar, sir - chased & ordered by Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov, a.k.a "the Butcher" for his hard style of command and his willingness to sacrifice his men only to meet jack frosts/stalins scheduling for bloodbaths which would make later nice heroic holidays.
    georgi konstantinovich is the very same "the butcher" - who received the Order of the Red Banner for subduing the Tambov rebellion in 1921 - a peasant uprising against the local bolshevik administration.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion
    what kinda literature & how bad was it to exchange one-sided pleasantries?
    to me it's really alarming how deep the israeli belief in this selfmade illusion is - half the government and the knesset has a past in the military, each and everyone served for three years and longer - so they should have an idea of the "moral" realities -
    or:
    okay, indeed it is mirrored by the hamas and their clientel:
    and i agree, getting arrested in the west bank and in gaza isn't fun - guess who trained the Palestine Security Force/the presidential guard and supported them with "non-lethal" equipment and technology.
    (hint: the support given was meant to support "the war on terror")
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinia ... ity_Forces
    http://www.marsad.info/ - the "english" button is in the upper left corner

    listening to butcher:
    see: the ones tawarishch vassily called "the usual suspects" - and the marginalized racists and family-people in distress:
    "sudanese" means the "black" (as in "african") jews actually bought/purchased in sudan by the jerusalem government, economically competeting with the "true" jews...
     
  17. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Next question:
    Q: who's benefitting in our days from what the red army soldiers did in their time?
    That's where you caught at least me, Tambov still calls for some serious research, much of the little which is known reminds strongly of Kronstadt - but there's little to make up an opinion about without knowledge about whotts propaganda, whotts not.

    Anyhow, I meant the other butcher!
    Don't laugh: Amira Hass, Ernesto Guevara and some post-war germun poetry/lyrics I don't remember anymore - and they were a bit rough in their affection then, but it helped to shorten the drama when the germun attachees were expected and I wasn't in a state to be presented to visitors - Out of sight, out of mind...
    too bad...
     
  18. nike

    nike Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    A: ?????????????? - guido knopp maybe?
    :thumbsup:
    Amira "Ha'Aretz" Hass:
    guess she makes a fine "recommended reading:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amira_Hass
     
  19. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nike Mikhailowna, you are unbelievable - get your glittering prize at room 101...
     
  20. nike

    nike Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    no, tawarishch vassily o'brien sir, i'm not - but what is in room 101??? (ministry of truth, Portland & Langham Place, London) :ecouteurs:

    Palestinians 'moving ahead' with UN bid: Erakat (DOHA (AFP)
    Palestinians are determined to go ahead with their UN membership bid as an Arab League follow-up committee endorsed a final draft of the request to be presented to the UN General Assembly, a top official said.
    Saeb Erakat brushed off as a public relations stunt Israeli attempts to lure the Palestinians back into peace talks based on the 1967 borders if they abandon the UN membership campaign.
    "The Palestinian train is now heading towards New York," Erakat, the chief Palestinian negotiator, told AFP during the committee's meeting in Doha, Qatar, late on Wednesday.
    After the meeting, Erakat said the members of the committee "have reached a final agreement to request the full support for a Palestinians state within the 1967 borders with its capital Jerusalem."
    The request "will be ready to present before the next UN General Assembly session" in September, said Erakat.
    The committee members had also agreed to "double their efforts to garner support from members of the UN Security Council," he added.
    Erakat played down statements by an Israeli government official who said Tuesday his country was willing to begin new peace talks based on the 1967 lines if the Palestinians drop their UN membership bid.
    He said the statements were "leaked" from the office of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin, dismissing them as a PR exercise.
    Talks between Israel and the Palestinians have been on hold since last September, grinding to a halt shortly after their relaunch earlier the same month over the issue of settlement construction.
    Israel has declined to renew a partial settlement freeze that expired shortly after the direct talks began, and the Palestinians have said they will not negotiate while Israel builds on occupied land they want for a future state.
    With the talks on ice, they have instead pushed forward with the plan to seek UN membership for a Palestinian state.
    Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas has insisted the plan does not rule out the possibility of new peace talks, but said he will not negotiate without a settlement freeze and a clear set of parameters for any new talks.
    Faced with the promise of a Security Council veto by the United States, which is pressing the Palestinians to resume stalled negotiations with Israel instead, Erakat urged the US government to "reconsider its position."
    The Arab League follow-up committee, which groups the Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Morocco and Lebanon, is chaired by Qatar.

    There seem to have been at least two israeli air raids in Gaza again, targetting hamas installations and a smugglers tunnel at the egypt border and thus continuing the attacks yesterday on two training facilities of the Ezzedin Al-Qassam brigades (the “military branch” of hamas)
     
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