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Politically, what do you consider yourself as?

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by punkdude, Aug 27, 2009.

  1. Bananaman

    Bananaman Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aug 9, 2009
     
    Please cut out that bullshit. Various Christian and Muslim thinkers have been spewing out such nonsense for centuries. It's the "Credo quia absurdum" argument, and I personally find that insulting.
     
  2. rE sIs Tanz

    rE sIs Tanz Active Member Forum Member


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    Hi Bananaman,

    actually I had not the intention at all to start any polemics here and it is for me quite surprising to read such a comment in a forum of a net called Anarcho-Punk Net. First of all please do not put me in the same cup with any Christian thinker! Christianity has NOTHING in common with Islam! I will not make any "anti-Christian" propaganda here now cause that is absolutely not in my interest. We can maybe discuss this topic in another platform one day, but I really do not want to start or/and continue any polemic here.
    I think I have explained my point of view, my belief in a quite proper way, don't need to explain it again.
    "La ilahe illallah" is Arabic and means in English "There is no ilah (god) but Allah". And what I did write in my comment is my interpretation of this sentence. I have a free mind, I can think on my own, I do not need neither your nor anyone else's advice on how I have to interprete the meaning of words. Of course there are a lot of Muslim thinkers who interprete this sentence in exactly the same way as I do.
    I personally do not feel insulted by you but I must say that I find it sad that here are people who are that prejudicial to cultures they do not know anything about. Or do you live in a "Muslim" country? And you sure think that Muslims should not be performing any kind of punk, aside Anarcho Punk, ha! But I am sorry to have to tell you that music in really independant, sound waves to wander free through air and cannot be caught and be imprisoned by anyone. Or is for you Anarcho Punk Rock a monopoly (game)?
    I don't need your permission to be anarchist my friend, ok?

    **ck you!
     
  3. thoreau_me_a_bone

    thoreau_me_a_bone Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 29, 2009
     
    Mostly ancap/agorist/individualist, though I also support collectivism on a local/individual level. I also have a streak of classical liberal/libertarian which causes me to accept oligarchist type compromise.
     
  4. GFSM

    GFSM Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 25, 2009
     
    settle petal.

    er... except for the sharing of quite a bit of scripture. the "big three" of western religions are entirely interlinked. the persona of the christ is accepted by quite a few muslim sects as a prophet for example. how you came to this conclusion is quite bizarre and flies in the face of not only obvious religious doctrine but also impartial independent analysis.
     
  5. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    usually when asked what i consider my self (bot h politically or religiously) I usually say SUBVERSIVE.


    -the anxietist
     
  6. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Sorry but this is ridiculous. Just like anarcho-christians and anarcho-sionists are ridiculous

    ALL anarchists since proudhon have denied the existence of god.

    And, EVEN IF ALLAH OR GOD REALLY EXISTED, like Bakunin said, we would need to get rid of it.

    Wether god exists or not, it is the highest expression of authority and any anarchists must oppose to it


    By the way what do you think about the creation of the earth? I suppose you think Allah created the earth and the humans??

    A religion like islam is way more that just believing is a god exists or not.... What do you think about women rights ?? What about the jews ?? And what about the separation of religion and politics in a society ??

    All this religious brainwashing have nothing to do with anarchism...

    yeah, just like the national-anarchists, anarcho-christians and anarcho-sionists doesnt need our permission to think they are anarchists..
     
  7. Rabbit

    Rabbit Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 26, 2009
     
    To be fair here, ZIonism is just the belief that Jews (whether secular or religious) should have a place somewhere to live in peace. The original Zionist, Herzl actually didn't give a rat's ass about religion or the Holy Land. He just saw anti-Semitism rampant in the Christian/Muslim world and wanted a place of safety outside of it. In that sense, an anarcho-zionist would want a Jewish community to live safely together. Not all Zionists are assholes like the right wing.

    That's different from being an anarcho-christian/jew/muslim which I agree is ridiculous. It is central to anarchy that there is no authority. Any sort of god is the ultimate authority.
     
  8. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    i could not possibly disagree with this statement more. While I do not necessarily believe in god in the christian form, or any established form for that matter, i do believe in a higher power. I do not label myself anything, nor do I think believing this makes me any less relevant then anyone else on this website. I do believe in a higher purpose, not exactly sure what it is, but whatever it is, it has led me to believe that all governments are wrong, all established orders are bullshit, all class systems inane, and 99.9% of all authority is useless. (go ahead and call me out on that one as well, but until i hear a reasonable alternative to prisons for rapists, child molesters, murderers, etc, then i have no problem accepting penitentiaries for those individuals. and yes I believe every world leader deserves to be locked up in one as well.)

    Anarchism to me, among other things is about opening your mind, accepting others differences and working together for a common goal, which I essentially see as smashing all forms of fascism, and building a peaceful and tolerant existence.

    Absolute statements like the one I have quoted above make no sense for me. How can one person possibly speak for everyone? Isn't that against what anarchism stands for?

    -the anxietist (expecting flames)
     
  9. Rabbit

    Rabbit Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 26, 2009
     
    I think the your problem with the statement that was made is that your definition of "god" is different than the one used in the definition. The deities of nearly every religion are authority figures of the highest order, handing down laws and proclaimations and telling adherents to obey certain people, exactly like a government does (the only exception I can think of is Abraxas, the combined God/Devil). How is a god in this sense any different than a government of man?

    A radically different concept of a higher power could certainly fall outside of this criticism, but the statement was in the context of the god worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims. In that context, the statement points out what to me looks like a contradiction between Islam (submission to Allah's will) and anarchy (submission to none).

    See? Flame free.
     
  10. GFSM

    GFSM Experienced Member Experienced member


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    flames? i couldn't agree with your post more. the idea that "god" equals "authority" is a product of religious indoctrination, whether it be overt or culturally subliminal. one does not need religions in order to perceive "higher" forces at work in the manifest world. telling people not to believe in spiritual matters (just because of the corruption of religions for example) is as fascist as it comes.

    i have written on this before under my old username, but if you told an indigenious australian not to believe in the dreaming because their "gods" are "oppressing" them makes you totally and utterly racist, since the dreaming (to those who believe in it within their culture) is inherently part of who they are.
     
  11. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    ok.... but we are talking about RELIGION... don't confuse things

    And you think we share a "common goal" with religious peoples ?

    Anarchism is opening your mind yes, but not to everything. Anarchists are usually against religion as much as they are against capitalism and fascism

    All famous anarchists have made similar statements, nothing new.

    And no, anarchism doesn't stand for "you are not allowed to give your opinion if it discriminate some kind of idologies"


    @Rabbit : Agree. Thank you.


    Then i guess the spanish revolutionnaries were fascists when they chosen to not allow religions..... And i suppose they were fascist when they chosen to censor counter-revolutionnary propaganda.

    Even anti-fascists are fascists following this same logic.

    We must face it : anarchism isn't open to everything.

    When the revolution comes, churches are to be burned with police offices and banks. Same fight !
     
  12. GFSM

    GFSM Experienced Member Experienced member


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    sorry to point this out, but you're confusing things somewhat yourself.

    you're talking about religion. religion is the organised indoctrination of spiritual thought. believing in a "higher" (i dislike that word) power doesn't make you religious. it makes you spiritually inclined, but these days "spiritualism" has a bit of a dud rep due to the new-age fruitcakes.

    bearing this in mind, re-read what i wrote. i don't consider the spanish revolutionaries to be fascist for destroying churches so much, because they're fighting religion. not "god or "gods" themselves. how can they fight something they don't believe in existing? churches are merely boxes for idiots who thing you can put "deities" or whatever inside something. symbols. empty tokenism.

    and that dumbarse Bakunin quote? "if god exists we must get rid of it" or whatever. it's fairly obvious that Bakunin had some kind of socio-religious brainwashing himself. not his fault, he was a product of his times. people who think "god" is an "it", a "him", a "her" or a "thing" (or even a "god") generally are either religious or post-religious. take say, shinto. they believe there are seven gods in a grain of rice. quick, molotov the rice fields!!!!

    anarchists quoting dead philosophers reminds me of christians quoting the bible. so much for free thought. nothing is free inside quotation marks.
     
  13. thoreau_me_a_bone

    thoreau_me_a_bone Experienced Member Experienced member


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    I think it's very cliche and ignorant to believe that spirituality contradicts anarchism. In fact, it can actually be the driving force in anarchism for some people (i.e. Thoreau, Tolstoy etc.).

    The "no gods no masters" thing is a statement against involuntary submission. Anarchists should spend their time fighting organized religion and governments who force religion, but how is it contradictory to our beliefs to CHOOSE a king? If we choose to believe/follow a god or gods that is our choice which is much more anarchist than not believing in a higher power because other anarchists frown upon it.

    I am mostly a zen buddhist, but I go to a unitarian church and have many views that are in line with original christianity. I am not forced into this and don't let my spiritual life control me. I've had life changing spiritual experiences (near death experiences, psychadelic trips etc.) that have confirmed (to myself) that "god" (whatever that may be) exists.

    I don't understand why backing up your political beliefs with spirituality is considered a contradiction. Jesus and Buddha were more anarchist than anyone on this board. If jesus really did die for what he believed, that's a hell of a lot more than any of us have done.

    But the bottom line is I dont see what the value in bashing "believers" is. I also dont see the point in bashing individualist anarchists. We all hold the idea that government is bad, and government should not exist. Beyond this, what is the point of in-fighting?

    In my opinion its petty crap like this that has weakened our movement. The reason people like the religious right can get so much shit done is because they dont spend time nitpicking over details.

    Go spend your time on people like the LDS church or the scientologists. Don't waste your time telling christian anarchists that what they believe isnt "true" anarchism, because you know damn right that there's no consensus as to what anarchism is. The only attribute we can confirm is "government shouldnt exist". We should use this as a common ground of interest, not a reason to be elitist and dogmatic.
     
  14. thoreau_me_a_bone

    thoreau_me_a_bone Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 29, 2009
     
    EDIT: double post. removed by GFSM.
     
  15. sociopop82

    sociopop82 Experienced Member Experienced member


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    i'm misanthropic for reasons i'm not sure of.
    it's hardly a political stance but i needed to throw that out there.
    I probably fall towards being liberal
    even though that party has some things i disagree with.

    also i have a strong working attitude.

    i would say working class but i believe every class should be working.
     
  16. Link K2B

    Link K2B Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 27, 2009
     
    It's fuckin idiotic to say that anarchism is closed to certain beliefs. Based on what? Based on your interpretation of anarchism? Based on sumat Bakunin said? Free thinkin, indeed.

    I don't give a fuck if you're anarcho-Christian, anarcho-capitalist or anarcho-fuckin-tellytubby, you should ave a right to practise whatever belief or socio-economic system you wish so long as it doesn't impinge on other societies around you. If you go around tellin people 'You're concept of anarchism does not agree with mine and is therefore wrong and you're no longer in Club Anarchy, give back your badge and your zines' then you're basically shootin down the movement itself.

    People can believe whatever the fuck they want and belong to whatever institutions they fancy so long as it doesn't impinge on you. You haven't the authority to say otherwise.
     
  17. thoreau_me_a_bone

    thoreau_me_a_bone Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Oct 29, 2009
     
    Kudos to that brother.
     
  18. GFSM

    GFSM Experienced Member Experienced member


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    and more kudos from me. i'm removing the double post.
     
  19. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian Barbarian Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 19, 2009
     
    I agree with you Link, but i DO care if someone PRACTICES AND BELIEVES IN FASCISM, im sorry but look where its gotten people in the past, plus it produces racism, sexism, etc. etc.

    And as for religion... i feel all religion is the same, same practices, different belief system (i get the differences, but the generality of it all). But if being religious makes you a better person, if it makes you do good for the community, then by golly pray to whoever... as long as you dont shove it down my throat, which people try to do all the time..

    christianity,judaism,muslim, ive had people from every group say the same thing to me- Give us money and youll be saved!!
     
  20. Rabbit

    Rabbit Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 26, 2009
     
    If you scroll up, you'll see that the statement made was based on organized religion, not spirituality.

    This statement doesn't make any sense. It is 100% contradictory to the beliefs of anarchists to choose a government. Why, because governments are bad. The problem isn't that we don't choose them. If your statement were correct, we could make do with a democracy or a republic.

    I don't see how submitting your will to a religious figure is any different than giving up your freedom to a government. Unless your spiritual beliefs do not involve this submission, in which case I believe that they are compatible with anarchism.
     
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