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Israel zionist fascists want to deport palestinians from Gaza on a desert island

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by ungovernable, Apr 4, 2011.

  1. DET IRONSIDE

    DET IRONSIDE Active Member Forum Member


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    People that I have met and debated with, post-zionists from mainland Israel. They've grown up there, they see the shit but they also see the dogma that fuels the shit on both sides.

    Seriously speaking about this issue, and I'm a pretty active campaigner and fundraiser for Palestinian rights, I would like to see a recognition of the green line by the Israeli state and the setting up of a functioning Palestinian state with its own army, import and export and air and sea-ports. A recognition of the Palestinian state in-line with the 67 borders, with maybe a landswap deal or two.

    Thats a coherent demand and its a lot more easy to embarass a hardcore Zionist expansionist and gain sympathy from a post-Zionist or an average Israeli with those demands than a simple "DUH ZIONIST FASCIST PRICKSTAKING OVER THEWORLD I HATE YOU DUH" campaign of plain bile and hatred that you see splurging out of the crappy dogma filled youtube vids the world over.
     
  2. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Israel doesn't have any legitimate reason to exist, end of the story... I'm pretty sure that if i write a religious book saying Glawgow is the land given by my god, then i invade Glasgow, divide your city and put all your family and friends behind a big illegal wall, and then keep raiding your homeland with my army, killing your friends, preventing humanitarian aid, food and water from entering your country and then claim that Glasgow is mine and that your part of the city isn't officially recognized, and start spreading racist propaganda against your people, claiming that you are terrorists because you fight back.... I'm pretty sure you would call me a fascist and wouldn't waste your time playing on words and saying that calling "fascist" your oppressors is "retarded".
    And i am talking about israel as a state, not about the israelians as a people. I do understand that not all israelians are monsters, neither they are all fascists, but ISRAEL as a state IS fascist and monstrous.
     
  3. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I don't want to generalize, but the fact is that most of them are for the wall.
     
  4. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Yeah you are right, Israel got a large support among their people and most of israelians support the politics of the state, including the wall and other injustices...
     
  5. DET IRONSIDE

    DET IRONSIDE Active Member Forum Member


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    Israel has existed under UN mandate since 1947: FACT

    In my opinion no state has any legitimate reason to exist. In fact the system of having nation states is probably the biggest problem in the world right now.

    When you colonise a land and treat it as your own when you are an organising a seperate nation state, thats colonialism, not fascism. You still don't understand (or appear not to want to understand) that fascism is a distinct idelogy that rose to popularity in the 1930s in Western Europe but its insular economics made it unpopular amongst colonialists in Britain and the USA. And, for some bizarre reason, you think simply labelling Israel fascist, thus labelling Israelis supporters of fascism, will get them to change their mind and sort of make everything better, even if thats not correct and potentially damaging to the peace process and the Israeli peoples acceptance of that process.

    Is that it?

    You do understand that most of the western world's conspiracy theories, going back hundreds of years) are propaganda against Jewish people and Israelis are pretty Jewish? They are an ethnic group quite used to having bad propaganda written about them, and their response is normally to ignore and carry on regardless and get more insular.

    Understand that the ones holding ALL the cards when it comes to military might in that region are the Israelis. The people we have to convince in this case are the Israeli people, as they do have a democracy. Simply caling them fascist and behaving like a retard, by shouting Zionist fascist when the only basis you have for that is actually colonialist behaviour and not fascist behavior, is not going to bring about any solutions.

    Are you reaching for solutions or just read some books, watched a few videos and attended some meeetings and feel like its cool to shout zionist fascist?
     
  6. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    This is your fucking opinion, I believe they are acting as fascists when they emulate the actions of fascists, and splitting hairs whether they are actually practicing fascists is just as assenine as using the word 'retard' in a derogatory manner. This is a forum where many little worlds fit, get used to it or kick rocks.
     
  7. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    An anarchist giving legitimacy to United Nations, wow, what a fucking joke !!!!

    Who gives a fuck about what UN thinks ?? It's still stolen lands justified by a religious book... Absolutly no legitimacy to exist !!!

    And BTW 1947 UN partition plan is far from being what israel looks like today...
    [​IMG]

    But the way the palestinians are treated IS FASCISM !!!! The way israelians are treating palestinians is exactly the same way the nazis treated the jews before starting their final solution!

    BTW colonialism doesn't involve kicking out the palestinians, deporting them and excluding them behind a wall!!

    Also, israel is not colonialism. Colonialism is when a foreign power invade a smaller country and consider it as their country. Israel is not a colonialist power, israel doesn't belong to any other country, israel is independant.

    hahahah so we must lick israel's ass and stop critizing their government to avoid damaging the peace process... wtf is that joke ?? That's like saying we should stop to critize US actions to avoid damaging peace process in irak or afghanistan

    So what ?

    WHAT ? You are saying that israel is a democracy ??? What a fucking joke....
    Attack on flotilla, non-respect of international laws (wall is illegal), colonization of lands that are not their's and deportation of native palestinian, non-respect of United Nations laws and partition plan, non-respect of fundamental human rights and human rights charter, etc..... THIS IS WHAT YOU CALL DEMOCRACY ??

    The only thing "retarded" in this debate is the one who pretend that Israel is a democracy and play on words because calling them fascist could damage the peace process.... Oh yeah, and an anarchist giving legitimacy to United Nations is also quite "retarded"

    I have been studying israelo-palestinian conflict for many years, watched MANY documentaries, read a shitload of texts, a friend of mine went to a trip to israel and palestine and sent me daily e-mails explaining all the shit she was confronted to, etc....

    You CAN'T deny that many people in israel, including government officials, definatly correspond to the defintion of fascism, especially the ones who want to remove Gaza from the map and send all palestinians from Gaza to an island !!

    Read the definition of fascism on wikipedia, today the term "fascism" got a much more larger definition, fascism does not necessarly means a mussolini-like, franco-like or hitler-like regime..
     
  8. DET IRONSIDE

    DET IRONSIDE Active Member Forum Member


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    Nope nothing on that in Israeli policy. Like the USA theres two main parties Likud and Kadima. Both pretty similar to, respectively, the Republicans and the Democrats in the USA. It is what the academic world refers to as a democracy. Not what I would recognise as true democracy but acacdemically speaking, yes its a democracy.


    Please give me you arguments as to HOW the Palestinians are being treated in exactly or even a similar way to the Jewish people before the final solution? Where are the national propaganda videos of the Palestinian plot to take over the world? Where are the Palestinians equivalent of the Protocols of the Learned Elders fo Zion being circulated?

    Why are pro-Palestinian groups allowed to protest and organise in major Israeli cities like Tel Aviv without opposition from the government?

    So you're saying all Israelis are NATIVE to Israel or that they are migrants from foreign countries? I would say they are largely made up of migrants and the descendants of migrants working as a colonial power with an agreed ideology and aim that many feel they have achieved but an extremist minority also feel needs to expand over the rest of the Middle East, well east of the OT.

    My argument is that we need to be sensitive in how we hurl about terms like Zionist fascist because that can alienate the kind of Israelis that people need to engage with. Young people who want to see a peace.

    It means some people behave like you do. They go into denial that they are making a logical mistake out of racial pride.



    Your argument is that of someone with a victim mentality. To say that an anarchist who recognises the UN is retarded is just as legitimate an argument that ANY nation state should not be recognised. And is frankly just as utopian based an argument that you have, but when working together to create a climate of nonsensical namecalling, which is what this is you guys wanting to call the state fascist when most Western states treat people in a similar fashion.

    Take the treatment of the indigenous populations of the Americas by the Americans that live there. Are those Europeans not GREATER fascists who live from Quebec, throughout the USA and Mexico to Chile? Does that make citizens of European descent in these places hypocrites when they call the Israeli state fascist? I thinks so! This is a stupid argument that simply brings us round and round in circles when there is a much larger picture of people that have lived in and colonised Israel since the 19th century as part of the Zionist movement. They have achieved a goal in creating a functioning Israeli state that is a political powerhouse in the region.

    THAT is the problem because the Palestinian people have not been able to achieve that since Israel's abuse of the occupation in 1967. There is NO Palestinian income that is not taxed by Israel and then these taxes are handed back to the Palestinian Authority by Israel (well not after last week since the PA grew some balls and signed a unity government deal) But that is how the PA is funded. The Nazis were a little more direct in their taxing of the Jews before the final solution and those comparisons are infantile and don't engage

    What needs to be highlighted is the plight of the Palestinian people and their right to their own legitimate, armed, fully functioning, self-sustaining, autonomous state. The argument that the Israeli state is fascist is ludicrous. To argue that their policies persecute and disempower the Palestinian people is the right way.

    I know the work I have done in order to achieve that and thats what I want to see as a first step towards the end of this brutality. If passing Zionist Fascist around is your way of

    We need to raise the Palestinian standard, otherwise its likely to be ignored as baseless rhetoric and wiped out of existence.

    I fundraise regularly. I do active work on protests and other projects to help people in the West Bank and the Strip. I've also been to Gaza (the tunnels are cool. \m/ ) and have many friends there and in the West Bank who I chat to regularly in order to share news and views.

    I planned to go to the west Bank to help the olive harvest in October but I have to go to court for a direct action charge so can't go.

    I'm sorry to point this out but reading your knowledge of the situation you appear a disengaged voyeur, a namecaller on the sidelines, a useful idiot rather than an active participant. Engage in solidarity work with Palestinian people. Work with them, they need your support. Don't just sit around reading and moaning. They need physical things more than anything. They need actual solid support more than talkers.

    When it comes to Palestine there is a lot of talk but if more of those who just talked and went on the odd protest actually acted, if they took part in real solidarity work (and i don't just mean getting over to Palestine but thats at the core of the engagement) but got real substance behind their arguments and pulled together resources there would be a much stronger movement.

    Meanwhile hippies are just sitting on the sidelines slinging mud. Whats a punk? To me a punk is someone who is passionate and engages directly. Direct action is at the core of the anarchist ethos. Apply these priniciples.
     
  9. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Again, so you see yourself as an authority on the subject and others views are unacceptable, well I find your apologist slant towards the actions of the Israeli State unacceptable. Many of us on this site have done and are doing everything you have just stated and more, and if they want to perceive the Israeli State as fascist who the fuck are you to look down on anyone and declare their views as 'infantile' ? Sounds like a bunch of bullshit self-congratulatory masturbation to me.

    Who gives a fuck? Do it or don't, but your actions will speak volumes compared to what your mouth should keep to itself.
     
  10. DET IRONSIDE

    DET IRONSIDE Active Member Forum Member


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    Thanks for that. Thast the kind of attitude I respect, really its only ungovernable's arguments I really disagree with and ungov needs more experience if ungov has that kind of heart.

    The poster seems disengaged and ranty, perhaps too much of a keybolard warrior. I'd like people with the kind of heart ungov shows to be engaged and not just thropwing around bland catchphrases.

    Say what you like about the Israeli's though, their policies ARE no more fascist than the governments of the Americas in their dealings with the indigenous population
     
  11. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Let's look at the rest of the definition:
    "Fascists advocate the creation of a totalitarian single-party state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through indoctrination, physical education, and family policy including eugenics.[3] Fascists seek to purge forces and ideas deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration and produce their nation's rebirth based on commitment to the national community based on organic unity where individuals are bound together by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and "blood".[4] Fascists believe that a nation requires strong leadership, singular collective identity, and the will and ability to commit violence and wage war in order to keep the nation strong.[5] Fascist governments forbid and suppress opposition to the state.[6]

    Fascists promote violence and war as actions that create national regeneration, spirit and vitality.[7] Fascists exalt militarism as providing positive transformation in society, in providing spiritual renovation, education, instilling of a will to dominate in people's character, and creating national comradeship through the military service.[8]"


    That's exactly what israel is doing.

    From wikipedia french:
    http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascisme
    "Au sens large, le terme fascisme a pris un sens générique. Il s'est étendu à tout mouvement politique s'appuyant sur un pouvoir fort, les métiers organisés en corporations, l'exaltation du sentiment nationaliste, le rejet des institutions démocratiques et libérales, la répression de l'opposition et un contrôle politique extensif de la société civile."

    Translation: The term "fascist" is taking a more generic definition. The definition is extended to all political movement taking base on a strong power, exaltation of nationalist feeling, reject of democratic and liberal instututions, strong repression of opposition and a strong extensive control of civil society

    Once again, it correspond exactly to Israel state.

    Are you blind or just totally ignorant ? Take a look at how jews were isolated and pushed away in Ghetto of Varsovia and then take a look at how Palestinians are ghettoized, pushed away, imprisoned behind a big illegal wall EXACTLY how the jews were treated prior to final solution.

    ALL OVER ZIONIST MEDIAS. Israel keep blaming arabs from being anti-semitist, israel medias keep saying over and over again that there is a second holocaust coming, israel keeps saying that the arabs are making an huge conspiration to kill all jews, they keep saying that arabs launched 4 wars against them, etc etc.... Israel is a big media-lie machine... If you understand french i suggest you to look on google for the conference "the 10 media-lies from israel" by Michel Collon.

    Are you kidding me ??? You are brainwashed by the zionist media, you have absolutly no idea of whats going on in israel. Opposition isn't allowed and is strongly repressed by the government, except if its a group of jews or something like that.... My canadian friend that went to a trip to israel was imprisonned without any reason during a whole day because they THOUGHT she was a pro-palestinian activist (she wasn't one!!)... They put her in a prison and pretended they had proof that she participated to a pro-palestinian group in Montreal, which isn't true!!! Opposition isn't allowed, being pro-palestinian is almost a crime in Israel...
    Take a look at what happenned to the first Intifada...

    The vast majority of israelians are immigrants. With the "law of return", Israel became the world's biggest immigrant country, with jews coming from all over the world to live in Israel. But israel was started after Israel's declaration of independance, by jews living in Palestine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism
    Colonialism is the establishment, maintenance, acquisition and expansion of colonies in one territory by people from another territory

    Israel doesn't correspond to the definition of colonialism.

    What you are saying is as stupid as saying that if Quebec declare its independance from Canada, it would be colonialism.

    I don't care, if someone act like a fascist i'm going to point out they are acting like fascists. I'm not going to minimize my words to see a peace.

    Racial pride ??? wtf are you talking about ??

    But Palestine IS a victim, dumbass !!

    I'd better have a victim argument than zionist argument too afraid to critize israel state for the sake of the pseudo-peace-process that zionist continue to sabotage each time it starts.

    Once again you prove your total ignorance. Comparing Israel to other western state is totally "retarded" like you would say. Israel is an unique case, you can't compare it to any other country.
    Find me one single country that was created because some religious fools said it was the promised land, then they expanded and took the whole land, find me one single country that put all the native people behind a big wall, then cut off their water, food, humanitarian aid, stopped recognizing the country existence, blamed them for wanting to create a second holocaust, attacked humanitarian aid convoys, etc..... If you can find me a single country corresponding to this definition, then i'll agree that they also are fascists.

    Yes, the way the indigenous populations were treated by colonialist was definatly in a fascist way. But unlike your example with Israel, the case of indigenous populations REALLY correspond with the definition of colonialism.

    What ??? You're fucking idiot of you think we should blame the citizens for the action of their State, that's like blaming all israelians for what their government does...

    "functionning" is very subjective.

    what needs to be highlighted is that the palestinian people have the right to get back the lands that was stolen from them.

    Call it whatever the fuck you want, i don't give a shit, but it still fits most of the definition of fascism. Call it fascist-like if you prefer and if it can shut your mouth up. Stop playing on words, you are acting like a zionist.


    What the fuck ??? Go fuck yourself, you don't even know me so fuck you, i probably have way more experience than you on the topic and you don't even know my engagement. The only one who looks like a keyboard warrior is you, all you can do is play on words and keep saying all opinions different from you are "childish", "infantile", "retarded", "keyboard warrior", "disengaged", etc...

    I tryed to respect you even if you have stupid point of views, but seeing the lack of respect i get from you i'll say with no remorse that you are a fucking idiot with zionist arguments, ignorant and thinking you're superior to everyone.
     
  12. DET IRONSIDE

    DET IRONSIDE Active Member Forum Member


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    I'll take what you said and respect it simple as that. I'm happy to agree that Israel is fascistic.

    You listed your experience on the topic earlier. It involved reading, watching videos and reading some e-mails from your friend who went to the West Bank. Thats where that post came from.

    Reading and organising is all a great experience but what the Palestinian people need is real solidarity and not simple mud-slinging. If the next flotilla gets raided make sure your politicians hear your voice. These are the actions that need carried out.

    Israel is a fully functioning imperial war machine but Palestine still needs building because the pricks keep knocking it down.

    Thats all I was trying to say. Sorry if that wake up call hurts your feelings.
     
  13. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Oh ok so if i don't have the money to take a plane and go to palestine, and if i don't have an empty criminal record required to take a plane (that's my case) then your opinion on the israelo-palestinian conflict is worth absolutly nothing ??? What a fucking elitist way of avoiding to consider other opinions.

    I participate to ALL actions in my area concerning palestinian conflict, in a few days there's some event called "montreal third intifada" and im going to it, not sure what it will looks like.... Also there's a project of building a canadian boat for Gaza and i'm actively supporting it, including with fundraising. We almost got all the money we need for the boat.
     
  14. DET IRONSIDE

    DET IRONSIDE Active Member Forum Member


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    Is that the case you need an empty criminal record to get on a plane in Quebec?

    I've already apologised.

    Good job, theres always more to do...believe me. I'm on bail right now and theres so much I can't do because of the stupid bail conditions I have I just feel so STUCK IN THE HOUSE!!!!
     
  15. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Depends where you go. I can go to Cuba because Cuba doesn't collaborate with Canada so they can't get my criminal record, but i can't go to USA and obviously i can't go to Palestine because the plane would have to go to Israel and Israel laws are as strict as USA concerning criminal records.

    Anyway, just to take a plane i have to request a Waiver or something like that if i have a criminal record, and last time i checked it would cost me from $1000 to $1500
     
  16. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    lulz
     
  17. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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  18. DET IRONSIDE

    DET IRONSIDE Active Member Forum Member


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    Keep quiet about that, it might become popular :/

    I'd fork out for the pardon at least. i know it feels disgusting and collabarative but sometimes the benfits outweigh cost. You need to travel, I mean its good for you and theres too many states out there that collaborate with systems like this.

    Also, how about Egypt? Theres always a way to the strip through there and the regime change might be beneficial.
     
  19. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Just came back from the third intifada palestinian protest in Quebec... Wasn't so bad. Bought a made-in-palestine kiffeh to support a canado-palestinian group and donated (again) $40 to the canadian flotilla for gaza organization

    BTW it is totally false when you said that pro-palestinian protests are authorized in what you call "democratic israel state". Today like each year since 63 years, the comemoration protest for Nakba against palestine wasnt allowe in israel. Israel sent police and soldiers to prevent the protest from happenning.

    here is some pictures and an article of israel soldiers and police officiers blocking palestinian protest in jerusalem

    http://www.20minutes.fr/article/724491/ ... -violences
     
  20. DET IRONSIDE

    DET IRONSIDE Active Member Forum Member


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    You got my point I got your point. May the 15th demonstrations have been pretty good but they have been rough. There were demonstrations in Tel Aviv with thousdands raising the Palestinian flag in Tel Aviv apparently for the first time in 63 years.

    There were at least 16 deaths yesterday and around 200 injured, but again these were at borders points (Jerusalem is not entirely in Israel, it is a border point and the capital of Palestine). They were organised to commemorate the Nakba. Their purpose was to highlight the fact that there is a right of return and people still have their house keys and want to cross the border to see where their houses are that they were evicted from.

    There was no tear gas, rubber bullets or live rounds being fired at demonstrators in Tel Aviv.
     
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