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About Iraqi Rape Reports

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by The ClicheAntagonist, Mar 24, 2011.

  1. The ClicheAntagonist

    The ClicheAntagonist Member Forum Member


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    Mar 23, 2011
     
    I just did some reading down on the Libya thread and came across the comment below. I wanted to weigh in on it, but the thread was progressing along so nicely on topic that I didn't want to hijack it so I brought it here. JoeyV, hope you don't mind me pulling your quote to another thread.

    Okay. So here's my thoughts on this. Obviously this is horrible. HORRIBLE. But the fact that it was used as a focal point at an anti-war action is absurd for more than a few reasons.

    This happened several years ago (unless I've totally missed a repeat of the exact same scenario). since the, the horrible stories coming out of Iraq have been refreshed again and again. I understand that this was news to you, but for the person who first researched it to speak about it at the action, surely they must have understood that the horse they were flogging was long ago buried. Not say atrocities should ever be forgotten. But while they continue, the current should stay current.

    The next issue I take with this is that it targets soldiers. Now given... those "men" certainly deserve to be targeted in more ways than one. But sending this kind of message out as a focal point for why the occupation of Iraq is wrong is unfair to some good people who happen to be there in uniform. Attack the previous administration for sending us there. Attack the current one for keeping us there. Attack Haliburton and Kellog, Brown, and Root... Boeing, Lockheed... all the copanies out there with a financial interest in backing the candidate who will keep us there the longest. Blame yourself for being part of the war economy every time you buy a gallon of gas. Blame the recruiters turning our campuses into fodder mills. Not to say that each individual soldier should not be held accountable for the role they play... but realize that there are more appropriate places to target.

    By the way... I served a tour in Iraq. I enlisted in the Army in April 2001. We were a nation at peace. We had not been involved in a major military action in a decade and that had only last a month and a half. Prior to that we hadn't been in a war since 1975. I was 20 years old. I had spent the past decade before involved in trying to make the world a better place through the scene. Then one day it dawned on me that no matter how loudly I screamed the lyrics, no matter how many zines I handed out, and no matter how many protests I went to, I was not doing the good I wanted to be doing. So I joined a peacetime Army envisioning sandbagging flooded communities, distributing medical supplies in third world countries, doing legitimate peace keeping in places like the Balkans. Then everything changed. But I did manage to make the best of it. I went to Iraq and while I was there I did not harm the first living soul. I did however give a 14 year old boy his first ever pair of socks to protect his sandaled feet during the desert winter.

    Point is... highlighting the acts of 7 horrible soldiers brings undue attention to a lot of people... and soldiers are people... who might not only be doing there best to do no harm, but who might actually feel more at home at an anti-war action (assuming they could go without feeling put on the spot).

    During the time that this happened, there were 150,000 soldier in Iraq. Find any group of 150,000 people where you aren't bound to find some monsters. Sexual assaults have been reported in our own community as well. Just one example, I searched "sexual assault wto" and didn't even have to scroll down. Now corporate media exposing the dangerous back bloc anarchist as violent sexual predators is to be expected. But is it fair? Of course not. Nor is it fair to highlight the actions of 7 in opposition to the war.

    I mean hell... there's already plenty of other much better material to attack the war with.

    Anyway... just my thoughts.
     

  2. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    i would still like it if someone can post a link to media articles on the story

    As for the rape story, it is shocking especially because it comes from men in authority who are supposed to be there to play a responsability... It's like if it was police officiers on duty that gang raped a young girl.....

    Also it is disgusting that other militaries participated instead of reporting the issue.... And there are officiers who are supposed to watch them...

    If they cant even control their sexual pulsions just imagine what they can do with a gun in their hands...
     
  3. punkmumma

    punkmumma Member Forum Member


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    Mar 18, 2011
     
    Rape isn't about sex it is about power and control and built up anger that is why you may have heard after natural disasters Rape or violence increases. I am not defending the soldiers at all but war can change a person.

    I think many of the stories are coming out now due to hearings in court. I will see if I can find some articles and post them in here to do with this.
     
  4. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 21, 2010
     
    No excuse for raping :ecouteurs:
     
  5. The ClicheAntagonist

    The ClicheAntagonist Member Forum Member


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    Mar 23, 2011
     
    I sincerely hope, and don't believe, that anything that I wrote could be construed as excusing rape.

    As for them being men in authority... well... like I said. Get ANY group of 150.000 people together. It's a romantic notion to think that you could have that many people, most 18-25 year old males, introduce constant stress on top of their hormones, then add to that a pack metality, and not expect something bad to happen. It SHOULD NOT BE THAT WAY, but unfortunately it is and would be so in ANY gathering that large. Again... not making excuses. Only highlighting that it is neither fair to use it as an incident representing the military as a whole, nor is it an effective focal point for ending the occupation.

    This is just the first link that came up on google.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. punkmumma

    punkmumma Member Forum Member


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    Mar 18, 2011
     
    There is no excuse for rape but there are reasons it occurs sadly. I am unsure if it exists in the military more so I think it is part of society and my view connected to patriarchy, gender roles things along those lines.

    Iraqi links:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5253160.stm

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17247852/ns ... /n_africa/

    http://antiwar.com/jamail/?articleid=10609

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oc ... erbeaumont


    If we understand the reasons then maybe it is possible to deal with it and change it. Rape harms all people in society, Women are not the only ones raped.

    Information on why rapes may occur I wish a small part of society would change and this is one of the main ones.

    http://family.jrank.org/pages/1350/Rape ... -Rape.html

    http://www.jstor.org/pss/3812897

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... x/abstract

    http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamli ... myths.html

    http://www.articlesbase.com/womens-issu ... 45819.html
     
  7. JesusCrust

    JesusCrust Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 17, 2010
     
    Fuck the military.
     
  8. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 21, 2010
     
    :ecouteurs:
     
  9. JoeyV

    JoeyV Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 23, 2010
     
    Sorry Friend but There Is nothing you/anyone can do to make me Respect US troops. Just Like I will never respect a police officer.

    Anyways yes I did hear this at an anti war protest From some anti war veteran.
     
  10. The ClicheAntagonist

    The ClicheAntagonist Member Forum Member


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    Mar 23, 2011
     
    I guess it just comes down to my wish that PEOPLE could be judged as individuals, not on their occupation (and by occupation I mean their job... not their invasion of a country). After all... more than a few profiles list "wage slave" as their occupation. I assume by that, they are not happy about their employers policies. Some here I bet even work for Wal-Mart. My former employer invaded Iraq and has a few rapist working for them, but I never drove a mom and pop grocery store out of business or opened up a third world sweat shop. Just saying...

    By the way... I'm new here obviously and while I'm not apologizing for my position on this, I hope that everyone gets that I'm just trying to engage in thought provoking dialogue and at least on my part don't feel anything personal in the differences of opinion.
     
  11. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 21, 2010
     
    I'm able to respect everyone, but it's just hard. To respect police officer or solider ? Why not, but they should earn it - by showing me some, or simply put - by allowing me to create something new ( What most of them doesn't, so they don't have my respect.)
     
  12. JesusCrust

    JesusCrust Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 17, 2010
     
    viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2530&p=25873&hilit=fort+hood#p25873


    As I've also said in another thread:
    and

     
  13. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    oh ok, this is a 5 years old story...
     
  14. JesusCrust

    JesusCrust Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 17, 2010
     
    Doesn't mean it never happened, and wont continue to happen. I think the point is, regardless of how old the story is, is that US soldiers gang raped a young girl, and killed her family. It happened. being 5 years old doesn't make it somehow illegitimate or untrue. It's the reality of what has, does, and continues to happen out there.
     
  15. Rabbit

    Rabbit Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 26, 2009
     
    Given that we have an all volunteer military (I understand some were driven to it by economic means, etc.), those who put on the uniform choose to sacrifice their individual responsibility to the uniform. Joining the military, you must have some knowledge of what you will be ordered to do. Aside from the outstanding individuals who are willing to stand up to their felllows (thinking of the officer who stopped the My Lai massacre in Vietnam), you can judge all the members of a group by their worst members, if they choose to remain within the group.

    I definitely think there are good people who join the military for bad reasons, but their choice to join up has to be theirs at some point.
     
  16. The ClicheAntagonist

    The ClicheAntagonist Member Forum Member


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    Mar 23, 2011
     
    Thank you Rabbit. I think this illustrates my point better than I've been able to thus far. I keep siting that there were around 150,000 soldiers in Iraq at this time and that it is a largely young, male, and naturally aggressive environment. Given, for every atrocity which makes the news, many don't. But were it not for the fact that a majority of them are good, conscience-driven human beings, don't you think the numbers would be a lot worse?

    The soldier from My Lai your speaking of was a helicopter pilot, Warrant Officer 1 Hugh Thompson, Jr. Unfortunately he was in fact not able to stop the massacre. He only landed and tried to provide assistance.

    Below is a list partial list of the soldiers involved in My Lai. Three platoons took part in the operation. A full strength platoon would be about 35 men, so this is by no means complete list of the approximate hundred soldiers there.

    * Michael Bernhardt – a sergeant, refused to participate in the killing of civilians and was threatened by Medina to not attempt to expose the massacre by writing to his congressman, and as a result he was allegedly given more dangerous duties such as point duty on patrol. Later he would help expose and detail the massacre in numerous interviews with the press, and also served as a prosecution witness in the trial of Ernest Medina where he was subjected to intense cross examination by defense council F. Lee Bailey. Recipient of 1970 'Ethical Humanist Award'.
    * Herbert Carter – platoon tunnel rat, claimed he shot himself in the foot in order to be MEDEVACed out of the village.[citation needed]
    * Dennis Conti – testified he initially refused to shoot but later fired some M79 grenade launcher rounds at a group of fleeing people with unknown effect.
    * James Dursi – killed a mother and child, refused to kill anyone else even when ordered.
    * Ronald Grzesik – a team leader, said he followed orders to round up civilians but refused to kill them.
    * Robert Maples – stated to have refused to participate.
    * Paul Meadlo – said he was afraid of being shot if he did not participate. Lost his foot to a land mine the next day, later publicly admitted his part in the massacre.
    * David Mitchell – a sergeant, accused by witnesses of shooting people at the ditch site; pleaded not guilty. Mitchell was acquitted. His attorney was Ossie Brown of Baton Rouge, thereafter the district attorney of East Baton Rouge Parish.
    * Varnado Simpson – committed suicide in 1997, citing guilt over several murders committed in My Lai.
    * Charles Sledge – radio operator, later prosecution witness.
    * Harry Stanley – claimed to have refused to participate.
    * Esequiel Torres – previously had tortured and hanged an old man because Torres found his bandaged leg suspicious; he and Roschevitz were involved in the shooting of a group of ten women and five children in a hut, later he was ordered by Calley to shoot a number of people with M60 machine gun and he fired a burst before he refused to fire again, after which Calley took his weapon and opened fire himself.
    * Frederick Widmer – Widmer, who has been the subject of pointed blame, is quoted as saying, "The most disturbing thing I saw was one boy—and this was something that, you know, this what haunts me from the whole, the whole ordeal down there. And there was a boy with his arm shot off, shot up half, half hanging on and he just had this bewildered look in his face and like, What did I do, what's wrong? He was just, you know, it's, it's hard to describe, couldn't comprehend. I, I shot the boy, killed him and it's—I'd like to think of it more or less as a mercy killing because somebody else would have killed him in the end, but it wasn't right."
    * William Doherty and Michael Terry – soldiers in the 3rd Platoon who killed the wounded in the ditch.
    * Ronald L. Haeberle – photographer attached to the 11th Brigade information office who accompanied C Company.
    * Nicholas Capezza – chief medic in Charlie Company, insisted he saw nothing unusual.
    * Sergeant Minh – ARVN interpreter confronted Captain Medina when he[who?] entered the hamlet on why so many civilians had been killed. Medina replied, "Sergeant Minh, don't ask anything – those were the orders."
    * Gary Roschevitz – grabbed an M16 rifle from Varnado Simpson to kill five Vietnamese prisoners, later according to various witnesses he forced seven women to undress with the intention of having sex with them. When the women refused he reportedly shot them.
    * Hugh Thompson, Jr. – Warrant Officer One, helicopter pilot, confronted the ground forces personally.
    * Glenn Andreotta – Specialist Four, crew chief of the helicopter which rescued survivors
    * Lawrence Colburn – Specialist Four, door gunner of the rescue helicopter

    The list represents various people who took various actions. Each deserves to be judged by the role they took, not by the organization they belonged to.

    GG Allin does not represent me as a punk, though many on the outside looking in would assume that we are all just like him. The Exploited does not represent my views of anarchism, yet they might as well have a copyright on the circle A as far as the uninformed are concerned. While the actions of the men at My Lai in general is deplorable... as were the actions of the rapists in Iraq, it is hardly fair to use blanket generalizations, effecting even the heroes who stood up against them, assigned from positions drawn from reading second and third hand accounts about a few, from the comfort of your living room... the outside looking in.

    Man... I'm not making any friends here. Unfortunate since despite this difference, we're probably on the same side.
     
  17. punkmumma

    punkmumma Member Forum Member


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    Mar 18, 2011
     
    Yes and it is just being sorted out now via the courts. I think it has come about due to Allied forces in Libya as well not sure on that. Also the 4000 photos from Afghanistan that have surfaced of the kill team :|
     
  18. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Maybe this guy could help:

    [​IMG]

    Victorian neo-Nazi used as medic in Afghanistan

     
  19. punkmumma

    punkmumma Member Forum Member


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    Mar 18, 2011
     
    @ butcher He looks like Chopper :lmao:
     
  20. Bentheanarchist

    Bentheanarchist Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Soldiers are just working class people who are brainwashed by the government to fight the governments wars, and kill on command. Soldiers take a lot of shit for being used as toys by the government. It is not really the soldier's fault for rape. It is Bush and Cheneys fault for starting the Afghanistan, and Iraq War.
     
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