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Fuck the 4-skins! Boycott em'

Discussion in 'Music, punk scene & subcultures' started by SurgeryXdisaster, Jul 31, 2010.

  1. Caps

    Caps Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    'Supporting the troops' is a propaganda ploy. If you praise the troops you, by proxy, support the war. Why not criticise the war and, if you want to support the troops, let it be known they are victims, not heroes.

    This suggests that you are perfectly happy to play to fascists. I would have thought most non-fascists would not be happy to do this. Besides it doesn't suggest anti-fascism and that is shitty enough.

    Actual fact: More CCTV in London than the whole of the state of California. Fucking magic, well free.

    I live in the UK. London. I know there is a lot of anti-immigration feeling, especially as I originally come from Kent, near Dover, and I know how people feel. But I also know with an ounce of common sense and an ability to not read The Sun or The Daily Mail but alternative sources you will find this animosity is bullshit. And why choose such a controversial subject if you're so apolitical?

    No, not necessarily. But national pride is pretty stupid considering you could have been born anywhere and it can create divides where we don't need any. And wearing a Union Jack does make you look like an idiot.

    And utopia is just as extreme as dystopia. I know which one I'd rather head for. If you mean just 'as bad' then that's pretty worrying and certainly a minority opinion around here.

    I think this was already corrected. Still, is there anything being omitted? After all, you'd be happy to have affiliations with him if he 'left his politics at the door', right?

    Gooner here. Guess we were never going to agree on anything!

    [/quote]

    No worries but I'll speak my mind too. And I will be spreading chatting to people about this. If I end up chatting to any decent person at Rebellion this year who doesn't know about your political position and your recent history, I will inform them. If they still listen to you, fair play, but people have a right to know. Me? I think I'll keep my distance.
     
  2. 4-skins

    4-skins Member New Member


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    well you guys seem to have an answer for everything so you must be all right...........we may be many things but we are definitely not Nazis and do not support fascism or socialism in any form and have spoke out against this publicly. we do not discriminate about who comes to a gig that is their choice and you cant ask everyone on the door what they believe in or political views they can be left or right black or white we have had asian skins from Indonesia and skins from puerto rico no problems just music beer and a good time if you want to turn it into a big deal be my guest, i'll be completely honest with you I dont even know any fascists i couldnt tell you who is or isnt one or anti fascists for that matter. we are not interested in that . we don't claim to be influential...take it or leave it , yes we support the troops as human beings not the situation they find themselves in many are friends and family . i don't know sean at all i saw his message and agreed with it that's it there are 8 million people in London mate i don't know every sean in the city. like i said if we really cared what everyone thought we would have packed up years ago...we are just supprised that you are still rambling on about it 30 years later........ have you nothing better to do......... yes there will always be idiots tagging along and associating themselves with the band i'm just telling it as it is from the horses mouth......you have your views and i'm not trying to change it but the nazi tag is just complete bollox and just an easy slur anyone who might even slightly disagree with your stance likes to use but then everyone who really knows us knows that anyway. nice chatting to ya.....NEVER SORRY
     
  3. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    So, basicly, what you are saying is that you don't have anyhing against nationalism ? Hmm..And, of course, you support military actions in Iraq etc. ? hmm..

    Let me just ask you a question, what in the nine hells are you doing here ? Never sorry for what ? Stupidity ? :ecouteurs:

    And I don't like what you said earlier, that 4 - skins weren't nazis and WILL NOT be. Well, you see, here lies the problem. Nowadays they are right wing.
    "Competing for our homes and jobs. Begging in their gypsy mobs
    Our country is full, fear the worst. Shouldn't we put our own people first…"
    Just by saying "shouldn't we put our own people first" they are proving that they are complete dumbasses. Whose people ? UKs' ? Think about it, just becouse it's your favorit band, doens't mean you can't crisize them.
     
  4. Caps

    Caps Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Just out of interest: Where do the 4-Skins stand on the EDL?
     
  5. JackNegativity

    JackNegativity Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I'm not anti-skinhead like some left wing punks are (which would be stupid as i spent almost half of my life at the time decked out in boots and braces). I have no real problem with people having differing opinons from mine. Hell, I'll go so far as to say that despite recent events I still like older 4skins music (haven't heard the new stuff) and Oi! music in general. It's this turning a blind eye to neo-nazis (despite your fathers/grandfathers fighting and dying by the hands of their predecessors) I have a problem with. You should too.

    The right-wing immigration views are just the start, the seed that will eventually grow into something worse. If you care about your family and friends, don't let that happen. Think about it. Who's really fucking you over...immigrants or the government? If government officials were doing the job they were elected to and not worrying about their interests and those of the select few at the top of the food chain, there'd be housing and jobs for everyone, no problem.

    Why can't people see that people are more important (I almost typo'd "impotent" :lmao: ) than nations? And like it or not, there is no such thing as being apolitical. Life IS political. I don't think you're a nazi, honestly. But you are walking a thin line, eventually that line will get too thin and you'll have to choose a side...
     
  6. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Aye, that's something I'm talking about.
     
  7. Phiw

    Phiw New Member New Member


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    I found this thread while Googling for the latest news on The 4-Skins. Interesting discussion - gave me a lot to think about. I've been musing over this on-and-off most of the day, in fact. Just thought that I'd jump in with my 2 cents...

    For the record, I'd like to state that I'm neither an anarchist, or a fascist (well, I don't consider myself to be). I like punk and oi and my own politics are somewhere towards the left side of the spectrum but even I struggle to label myself beyond that.

    So, I bought the latest 4-Skins album when it came out - and listened to the song 'Take No More' (i.e. the one that's caused all the upset). To be honest, I was somewhat disturbed by it. Reading the lyrics and reading what the band members have said about the song, I understand what they were trying to say, from their own viewpoint (i.e. it sucks not being able to find a job because unscrupulous employers are hiring illegal immigrants for less than minimum wage) - whether or not I agree with it (my view is that they're angry at the wrong people here, FWIW - I don't reckon that the immigrants expected that this was going to happen when they decided that they wanted to make a better life in the UK, or perhaps escape from terrible occurrences back home). However, a song like that is almost inevitably going to appeal to and somewhat validate the views some of the more hate-filled, violent (and perhaps not so smart) elements within the Oi! scene (they're definitely there, anyone that says otherwise is either lying - or kidding themselves). I find it difficult to believe that the band never considered this when writing the song. They can't control who turns up at their gigs, true - but to the boneheads, the song could very easily be taken as a statement of 'yeah, man - we're on the same wavelength'.

    What makes it even worse is that the lyrics in the CD booklet are misprinted. Hodges clearly sings of 'illegal immigrants', yet the official lyrics render it as 'immigrants'. I knew that this in particular would cause a big shit-storm as soon as I saw it. Visions of idiots throwing Nazi salutes during the song, then the venue kicking off as others took exception to that (I believe that there was a gig in the USA not so long back where a band played a 'non-political era' Skrewdriver cover and the above scenario took place - I think that the 4-Skins were on the same bill).

    As it happens (and unrelated to the 4-Skins), there have been quite a few things in recent times that have given me cause for concern when it comes to the oi/streetpunk scene. For instance, post-the July 7 bombings, more than one song expressing outrage at the suicide bombers/Islamic extremism and a desire to never give in to terrorists has appeared - which, to a certain mindset could *very* easily be interpreted as a call to arms against Muslims/brown-skinned people in general. That makes me very nervous. There is also one band in particular with an outright (and as far as I'm aware, unrepentant) RAC/neo-Nazi past that seems to have been accepted with open arms within the scene - it confuses me as to how guys who come out with statements along the lines of 'we are opposed to political extremism - both left and right' and complain about being pegged as Nazis by the general public tolerate that band anywhere near (heh, I dunno - maybe they're really nice guys to whites?). I like oi - but again, this makes me uneasy and sows the seeds of doubt in my mind as to the genuineness of those statements.
     
  8. Caps

    Caps Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Great point, well expressed. I agree with pretty much all your post. I just think those of us that disagree with this mentality infecting punk should make sure it is exposed as much as possible.
     
  9. TottenhamSean

    TottenhamSean Member New Member


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    Jacknegativity
    How does 4skins commenting on his football team finishing above mine prove he knows me???
    The clue is in my name.
    I have been into this (oi) scene for 30 years, so i may know the fella, but at this moment in time i dont know that i do.
    Why don't some on here admit, you don't like Oi, don't like skinheads so whatever people say or do you aint going to like them ?
    Its the same old same old with some people
    As for punk ,and where it started, i am of the USA camp as well.It came to the Uk and changed,and was exported back ,but credit where credit is due the birthplace was the states.
    Aside from the inspiration to pick up a Guitar,(which came form UK punk bands) i think Oi was more influenced by the rougher end of the glam rock scene, Slade,Sparrer, Heavey Metal kids etc
     
  10. JackNegativity

    JackNegativity Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Ok so you don't know eachother. I believe i was wrong in that instance and I admit it. But as I've said earlier in this thread and elsewhere on this site: I'm a former skinhead and fan of the 4skins music myself and not anti- any of the shit you just stated. I spend a good deal of time on here defending the skinhead subculture, only to have wellknown people who should be on the same page come on here spouting off about nationalism. You guys are the ones perpetuating the stereotype that all skins are basically the same as boneheads. Ditch the fucking nationalism.
     
  11. TottenhamSean

    TottenhamSean Member New Member


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    jack'
    it was only the first part of my post that was aimed at you.The rest was aimed at the thread in general.
    You have lost me on the well known person who was spouting about nationlism( i will flick through the thread again and see if i have missed something)
    As for Nationlism pe ser, are you talking about Patriotism or fascism. Both seem to get labeled nationlism these days,as do some marxist organisations like IRA , its all very confusing.If you talking about Patriotism, are you really saying that there is no difference between someone that has pride in his/her country and someone who claims that some half demented murdering dictactor was right?? If i have missed what you mean, i appoalagise, but thats the way i am reading it

    Regards
     
  12. Derek Danger

    Derek Danger Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Personally, when I say nationalism I mean nationalism the political ideal, and I'm pretty sure we all mean that or something along those lines. Seeing as nationalism isn't an ideal too far removed from fascism (and nationalism is a defining attitude among fascists and one of the basic characteristics of fascism), when used in this context, it is entirely possible to assume it means fascism. Read between the lines, though; as that will give you your best hint about what the context is calling for.

    Many people may like to kid themselves, and say that "patriotism" is completely different to "nationalism". They are either lying to themselves (because they know they're full of shit) or cleverly spinning phrases in order to distract others away from their sinister beliefs, all the while making those beliefs more attractive to the average person, who has never learned to identify malicious nationalism in (what they are told is) good-natured patriotism. One sounds nicer (patriotism of course) than the other and so people may refuse to identify as a nationalist even when they are a "proud patriot" who displays nationalist tendencies.

    When I say NATIONALIST, I often mean something close to FASCIST (not always, though, as the terms are not mutually inclusive in all contexts). Furthermore, even saying NATIONALIST in the first place implies PATRIOTISM in many instances. Do you think that patriotism is a good thing? You seem to be hinting that if we anarchos learn to accept that it is "different" to nationalism, or if we cease to lump it in with nationalism and fascism, we may understand and despise it less. Well, bollocks to that, I'm never going to accept that NATIONALISM and PATRIOTISM are incompatible. Or, for that matter that PATRIOTISM and FASCISM have nothing to do with one another.

    By the way Sean, the reason the IRA is considered nationalist is because of its aims, which were nationalist. i.e. the creation of a republican Irish state (a nation-state), whose boundaries, governance and citizens would be shaped by what members saw as the Irish nation. It is fully possible to style oneself a Marxist while still attempting to establish a culturally homogenous nation-state, and the one does not cancel out the other.
     
  13. JackNegativity

    JackNegativity Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    4skins said:

    I take that as admission of being nationalist. Where you are born is an accident of birth, entirely up to chance. You have no control over it and it has nothing to do with you. Why would you have pride in something that has nothing to do with you? And yes, as anarchists we do equate (and rightfully so) patriotism with nationalism. Even 4skins is saying that. As I've said before: patriotism is the foundation of fascism. The world doesn't need citizens or immigrants/emigrants, nations or borders, as the world existed long before any of the people who claim to own any given part of it.

    I'll even go so far as to quote Crocodile Dundee (though corny, still accurate): "It's like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on."
     
  14. TottenhamSean

    TottenhamSean Member New Member


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    Jack,
    Still dont ( and never will) necasarily see the connection between the two.And its quite easy to me having pride in something i had no say in.Be it my Country, my Town, County etc.I doubt we will ever agree on this though.
    A question to all on here
    Do you think with the nature of some Human beings(Murders, drug dealers,Gangsters etc) Anarchy could ever work for all?
     
  15. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Jack, could you give me the source of that 4skins quote, just so i can show it to others ?

    Totten, obviously you don't unserstand anything about anarchism, no anarchists think that everyone would/could live under an anarchist society, especially murders and such. Talking about drug dealers prove that you dont understand anything since there would be no drun dealing in a society without money and where the commerce of drugs isnt illegal.
    Also, stop thinking we're anti-skinhead and we dont like Oi, i'm a big fan of Oi! and i have a shitload of skinheads friends.
     
  16. JackNegativity

    JackNegativity Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    @Ungov:

    It's in user:4skins first post in this thread, with a few more gems.


    @Sean:

    Do you really think Capitalism works for all? Capitalism works for the upper class, fuck the rest of us. Nothing is ever going to work for absolutley everybody, but at least in Anarchy you have a choice. With essential needs being met, the absence of money, and the absence of arbitrary laws--most crime would cease to exist. Anybody perceived as a danger to the community, or as not contributing to the community to their full ability can be voted out by the people. Anybody not wanting to live in the community and contribute is free to go live however they want somewhere else.

    Plus there's the added psychological benefit of not having an upper-crust ruling class to rule your life and exploit you--and having to PAY THEM for it.
    Anarchy is freedom, Capitalism is slavery and extortion.
     
  17. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    No, so just give up and buy a suit and tie already and don't forget your extra large Union Jack! :lmao:
     
  18. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Illegal Immigration is a oxymoron, freedom of movement is a basic human right. Did you know more people leave the UK than enter it? I was one of them, I left because the UK is the cess pit of Europe, you got no health service, a joke for education, constantly filmed and watched, moronic right wing assholes in charge of everything, coppers that think they are above god, just about everyone is an unfriendly, ignorant, patriotic, racist bigot, and half the people are so stupid that they think they live in a rich country when 10% people own almost all the wealth, just cos they aint got the brain power to work out that the gutter press aint gospel. You know you can drive all the way across Europe without stopping, don't need passport or nothing, til you get to UK, then it time to queue tp for an hour, its fucking embarrissing. Anyway, I never understood nationalism, but why you can even begin to be nationalistic about such a shithole country is totally beyond me. There is nothing about UK to be proud of at all. Even the weather is shit.
     
  19. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Fucking brilliant, best post I've read in a while.... :lmao:
     
  20. Phiw

    Phiw New Member New Member


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    So, I went on the 4-Skins' Facebook tonight and read this. Looks as though the band has gone on hiatus.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/The-4-Ski ... 3058682510

    My immediate thought was of this thread, but being realistic, I doubt that a single forum thread criticizing the band could be responsible (they've probably had worse over the years). Wonder what's happened behind the scenes? I hope that the band have not received death threats, or anything like that (I have heard stories of this sort of thing happening).

    For what it's worth, I don't believe that the 4-Skins have become racists or neo-Nazis, or white power, or whatever - conservative (with a small 'c'), yes, probably. Some of the lyrics of the new album would indicate that their views lie in this area. Sounds like angry Daily Mail reader-type stuff. Which, I'd imagine that most of you folks here fucking hate. Me? I'm more inclined to be of the 'meh - it's their thing, let them have it' - though I do have to state that I believe that the 'Take No More' song was tactless and ill-advised, considering that society seems to view skinheads as Nazis by default - and that when it comes to oi! bands, there are plenty of people from inside and outside the scene who are more than willing to do anything they can to bury bands, if there is even the slightest suspicion that they may hold 'white power' beliefs. If you're going to write a song criticizing immigration/illegal immigrants - you'd better make it clear precisely what it is you're trying to say and where you stand sociopolitically, is what I'm saying. It's a hot button issue that elicits extremely strong opinions and emotional responses nowadays (well, I suppose that it always has been) - and like it or not, people are going to draw conclusions about the person saying it, based on the information they have at hand. Freedom of speech, certainly - and I'm not even saying that the band *shouldn't* sing about such topics, if that's what they believe and want to sing about - but I don't think that I'm being 'politically correct' to suggest that there needs to be a degree of common sense and responsibility here, to avoid being tarred as hate-rockers and perhaps outright inciting violence against innocents.

    In their defence, unlike several other oi! bands that I could name, as far as I am aware, the 4-Skins have never been involved with the sketchy, fence-sitting dubiousness that blights the oi! scene (and seems to have split it into two in recent years), such as:

    - Unapologetically playing on the same bill as WP/RAC bands and telling people who criticize them for this to fuck off and stop being all 'PC gone mad'.
    - Releasing records on labels well-known for putting out WP/RAC music.
    - Recruiting members from WP/RAC bands.
    - Claiming to oppose *both* extreme left/right politics, but exclusively writing songs to bash 'commies' and 'reds', while keeping silent on the 'Nazi issue'.
    - Being one half of a split album/single with a WP/RAC band.
    - Appearing on compilations with WP/RAC bands (granted, bands don't always have control over where their recordings end up)
    - Giving interviews to racist fanzines in foreign lands.

    Phew, that took a long time to get out from brain to screen... :/
     
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