Middle Eastern Revolutions!

Re: Riots in Cairo

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 91,00.html

"The television network Al Jazeera reported that journalists had been targeted, and that a reporter working for the Al Arabiya station had been stabbed. CNN reporter Anderson Cooper was also attacked by a mob and punched in the head, according to a Twitter message sent out by CNN. A BBC reporter said via Twitter that a female camera operator had been brutally beaten up, while the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet said that two of its reporters had been attacked by an angry mob."

"Soldiers stationed around the square did not intervene in the clashes. According to a BBC journalist on the scene, there were too few soldiers present to keep order.
Eyewitnesses told SPIEGEL ONLINE that the army had supported the protesters by checking aggressive Mubarak supporters as they arrived and that they had discovered that some of the supposed supporters were actually members of the security forces."

"According to sources in Berlin, the German government has been in contact with moderate forces within the Muslim Brotherhood to talk about the ongoing unrest. The German government also called on the Egyptian authorities to allow a process of democratization in the country."

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/0 ... ss&emc=rss
Latest updates with reports from Tahrir (Liberation) Square and some international reactions

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

http://www.wsm.ie/c/running-battles-cairo-horse-camel
http://www.wsm.ie/c/running-battles-cairo-horse-camel
http://www.wsm.ie/c/running-battles-cairo-horse-camel
http://www.wsm.ie/c/running-battles-cairo-horse-camel
http://www.wsm.ie/c/running-battles-cairo-horse-camel
http://www.wsm.ie/c/running-battles-cairo-horse-camel

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

you don't know for sure where he lives or has lived and if he lost relatives in the lebanese civil war or not - i don't know him too, but i believe him out of several reasons - we had a big emergency meeting yesterday night because of the riots in Cairo and many people from the near east attended the meeting and gave their statements - and the majority sounded like random-person-from-there: people agonized by the endless fighting and murdering of organized minorities fighting each other without any regard to the suffering majority. part of the fighting started again yesterday, for some time it was even more worse than the shitfight here, but finally we overcame it and discuss it further, maybe start to gather statements and opinions on paper for something like a teach-in in the future.
i still don't share their/random persons views, but i think that i have to reconsider many aspects of my view again - just because i realize that i don't know enough - i never was confronted with the circumstances of a more than serious civil war. yesterday we found out about the similiarities between the near east conflicts and the balkan wars in europe in the 90's - only a few hundred kilometers away from us hell broke loose - and we watched it in the news and gathered information, but we never realized how bad the situation became and what it means to sit right in one of the numerous centers of chaos.

i don't think we defended random person - and i'm sure he don't need or want to be defended - we gave our views on certain aspects - i don't agree with him and i don't agree with vassilly - or better: i agree on certain aspects and details only.
it's an important debate and i think we should avoid thinking in like/dislike fronts against each other - so please keep up reading the stuff if you are interested and make up your mind and state your opinion, you did it here and elsewhere and it was important too to hear your point. maybe we all should be a bit more aware and tolerant of the language problem or even more important - the alteration/modification of a point of view during a discussion/debate - that's why we debate and discuss things - to make up our minds and change it it necessary.
Ungovernables point of view is acceptable because he's well informed and genuinely interested and involved - but that doesn't mean random person is fundamentally wrong or that he's a turnskin if he admits that he was wrong and changed his mind. and paying a little respect for his personal situation isn't asskissing - just try to imagine how it is to deal with the absence/memory of people you never even had the chance to met because they were killed for whatever inhuman reason by people you're forced to live with even if that means that you've to avoid them because they might kill you too for whatever...

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12358188

But I know we agree on this! \m/

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Hm, I apologize for not replying any sooner, power cuts really tend to go off on their own. I'll answer some questions and misunderstanding concerning me, I'm Lebanese-Egyptian by origin, I currently live in Dbayeh, Lebanon, I'm an Atheist, I oppose both Israel and Palestine, and I think "revolutions" such as those of Tunisia and Egypt tend to be counter-productive rather than revolutionairy to achieve Anarchy for we do not want any concessions nor any opportunism to hinder us, we want it all, not some petty reform. The Egyptian revolution, without proper leadership or guidance has fell on itself and turned to a melancholy of rape, murder, and theft. To think that they are now throwing Molotovs at each other rather at those who are shooting them dead, to think that an unconfirmed 100-300 deaths and 3000 injuries have resulted would unite these masses against a common enemy. I cannot give support to such a revolution of infighting and chaos. Concerning those who have put me on their Ignore list then all I can say is that they could always debate rather than do so, it would be mutual benefit and I definitely will not resort to name calling or insulting if the opponent can also keep his decency. This will be my last reply attacking Ungovernable, my next one will be to explain my position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and revolutions that tend to achieve reforms rather than an alternative system that will aid us once and for all. It is not because I will or am conceding submission to Ungovernable's attacks on strawmen, no, that would be ridiculous, but because this has been degenerating into a mass flame war with no one understand either position other than that Ungovernable is anti-Israeli and pro-Palestine, and that I am anti-Israeli and anti-Palestinian basically.

Now as for Ungovernable, I clearly cannot have a decent intelligent debate with him as he obviously is a fool, tending to resort to attacking strawmen and statements which I did not make, had withdrawn, or claims outrageous exclamations for quoting a website off of Google to quote the opposite opinion, so as a result I will treat him as such - an idiot. This post was written a few days ago, I did not have electricity to post it back then:

- Post deleted by Random Person From There-

I guess I have deleted my post for several reasons as people have pointed above:
-It is degenerating into a flame war with attacks rather than points.
-People are not understanding what we are talking about.
-It has gone mostly off-point, partly thanks to Ungovernable's attacks on strawmen and the mangling and avoidance of my arguments.
-That I think if we start off again with less point-by-point argumentation it would be better due to the prevention of quoting out of context, the support of details, and the attempt at forming an agreement rather than "who's more stupid".

There you have it, I am ready to start anew should anyone be wanting.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Here you go Ungovernable since you do not want to start anew:

- I thought I never said Palestine wasn't a genocide, while you strictly claim that Palestine never committed a genocide.
- To which I then withdrew my claim.
- That meaningless off-topic bullshit that you cannot read or comprehend is what I explained after it, but you're such a fucking idiotic retard that you cannot understand nor read.

Because I read that and you CLEARLY DID NOT EVEN UNDERSTAND, I have given up hope on you and I have been replying to your idiotic strawman that act as if a person cannot change his opinion after 2-3 days of debating. Not only that but you claim that I am a Zionist just because I quoted a Zionist source to laugh at.

"And you are not anti-israel since you are against me because i say that the stolen lands should be given back to palestine."
Oh yeah, no anti-Israel because I don't agree with you. No lands should be given back to anyone. No countries, no borders.

1) Absolutely not, you must not advocate such a point, it is against the Anarchist basics of "No countries, no borders". This then should be a whole argument by itself it seems since it is against the Anarchist motto.
2) Yes, and not only Israel should be abolished, EVERY nation should be and most nations are illegal by themselves, it does not matter if they have been created from a religious book or not.
3)It does not matter it being religious reasons, this topic of returning the land to Palestine after Israel has been removed needs to be discussed in full and I do not have time to do so, especially with you since you basically suck at debating.
4) Let them have their own nation, but they will not get any support from me.
5)I am against states, that is true, that is why I oppose Israel and Palestine but since you are pro-Palestine I have to come up with arguments against Palestine, where each one is being called Zionist by you.
6)I was talking SHOULD post-war annexation happen then it would bring them food, water, and electricity due to superior economical backing by the United State as opposed to a post-war Palestinian state that has just come out of devastation, it will need a lot more support to offer comparable social services to its citizens. (There you go now claiming that I want Palestine to be annexed although I never said that, I always said IF IT WERE ANNEXED, but sadly you just love attacking strawmen)
7)Yes, they have the right to fight back, and that means they are not defenseless if they are able to do so. They would be defenseless if they had no weapons or ability to fight back whatsoever.

That's my current position in a nutshell it seems.

Here you go, the context in full:
"The Rwanda GENOCIDE is a fucking crime against humanity with one side being a defenceless VICTIM. Palestine and Israel are both performing CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, both of them advocate goals WHICH ARE THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE WANT. There's no fucking genocide nor massacre, both countries are attacking each other and are in a full-out fuckign total war. If Palestine had not and is not fighting and being massacred then THAT IS A FUCKING GENOCIDE. Speaking of genocide, the Palestinians are killing Israelis and Jews just because they are so and just because their country did X and Y to them, shall you then condemn their actions? "
Interepreted genocide, as you can see, in another way rather than a simple "crime against humanity", must be because it was around 2-3 am? Here it can be obviously seen that I meant a genocide as in X going to Y and butchering all the defenceless innocent people of Y with direct orders as opposed to say, bombing. Oh and do you see how I admitted that both sides are attacking each other? Good. Do you see that I have been claiming that both sides are butchering each other for the last few days? I bet not.

Fun. Let's start:
-"So what ? Israel is still an illigitimate country on a stolen land, it doesnt have any reason to exist and we should fight against it. One nation for palestinians and israelis where everyone have equal rights, thats what everyone is asking."

-"For the 34034803904850 time, I AM NOT SUPPORTING A PALESTINIAN STATE, i am with the palestinian people.
I don't give a fuck whatever the future palestinian country turns into, ISRAELI IS AN ILLEGITIMATE COUNTRY, and it is not normal that palestinian isn't recognized officially by most of the countries, this is something that anarchist should be against."

-"Once again, i don't care. Israel doesn't have any legitimate reason to exist, PERIOD. And yes the world would be better without israel, the palestinian people would stop dying, and israel would stop starting war against the whole muslim world."

-"

Israel MUST be exterminated."

-I really can't understand how an anarchist can be so careless about a country being occupied by another country that was created because a religious book said it's the promised land.[/quote]
So if it happened 500 years ago we must forget that the Americas were stolen from the natives? Or because it is somehwat different and not coming from a religious book we must accept it? Being based on a religious book is nothing more severe than having immigrants (during the conquest of the Americas) slaughtering natives by the masses, the fight for Palestine is no more "unfair" than the fights from 500 years ago and so I reiterate again: many countries are based on stolen land.

-

(Although you said that the people are now supporting either Hamas and Fatih whom are considered as "terrorists".

-

-

- The part about the Media and Protests.

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

- (from my second post)

-

-But arguments such as this make it worth it:

-

And all those are from only the first and second posts, there are 7 more posts. We did not even mention the Vietnam War topic, and the many others that have been refuted.

As you can see most of your "arguments" are either misinterpretations due to you twisting and mangling my sentences, and the many many other posts of yours which were solely attacks.

You call me a Zionist and act as if I am really so and target all your arguments against Israel and Zionism as if I support any of them. You weren't even able to read that? :facepalm:

So when the Palestinians kill innocent Israelis, that means the Israelis are defenseless? Nice argument there.

"When martyrs use suicide bombs because they have nothing else to fight with THIS IS CALLED DEFENSELESS"
See? Your arguments plainly suck. Suicide bombs have been used for ages within the Islamic extremist organizations, not because they are defenseless, but because they find it effective and/or religious for their sexist reward in heaven after they blow themselves up killing innocents. Being able to blow yourself up and many others is NOT defenseless you retard, how the fuck did you come to this conclusion? THEY HAVE WEAPONS, BOMBS, MORTARS, ROCKETS to fight with, plus those bombs that are being used as suicide belts can be used to attack jeeps, soldiers, and tanks instead of INNOCENTS.

"Being able to defend yourself means that you have the equivalent force to resist the enemy. i.e. you have tanks to fight against the enemy's tanks, you have an army to fight their army, weapons to fight against their weapons, missiles to fight against their missiles, etc..."
.... Is this guy being serious? HAVING WEAPONS IS NOT BEING DEFENSELESS YOU RETARD, can anyone PLEASE teach this guy English or the meaning of the word "defenseless"? Defenseless - WITHOUT DEFENSE, without ability to defend. I see them more than capable to defend and attack, but it's the way they are doing it: unorganized attacks at random locations that hinders their success.
Oh, so Hizb-Allah was defenseless when it fought against the Israeli army? Fun!

I beg to differ:

Unless you changed your opinion then I can accept that, for I too wish to support the innocents, but that is very difficult and basically impossible if innocents live in between two murdering sides.


[quoet]

Lies. Here's proof:

[/quote]
Will you keep on quoting that even though I refuted it many, MANY times? Plus, you're taking it out of contexdt with a single backing that I posted to support that claim. Here's it again in full:

Interpreted genocide, as you can see, in another way rather than a simple "crime against humanity", must be because it was around 2-3 am? Here it can be obviously seen that I meant a genocide as in X going to Y and butchering all the defenseless innocent people of Y with direct orders as opposed to say, bombing. Oh and do you see how I admitted that both sides are attacking each other? Good. Do you see that I have been claiming that both sides are butchering each other for the last few days? I bet not.

So your argument is still void. "It was talking about massacres and killings done by Israel, which I do not doubt happened" as you can see I admitted that both sides are killing each other, but not one side is being the "defenseless damsel in distress".

Not all palestinian fighters are terrorists. They are considered as terrorist because palestinian state doesn't officially exist to most of countries, and their army isn't recognized, DUMBASS. The japenese suicide pilots were recognized as official fighters by the USA. Al-quaida isn't an official army, palestinian army is.[/quote]
Actually, all Palestinian fighters are considered terrorist. Anarchists using propaganda of the deed can be said to be terrorists too:

Terrorist: A radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities

The Japenese suicide pilots were recognized as official fighters because they were part of the JAPENESE ARMY. The Palestinian army is basically non-existent, it's mostly Hamas and Fatih that are doing the fighting.

:facepalm:
We were talking about weapons being considered defenceless or not (to think that we're arguing about that), then you came up with the intifada throwing rocks at tanks... Any sane person reading our debate would realize what has just happened.

At first he was like:
"Using cocktail molotovs and home made rockets against tanks and against a nation that got helicopters, top-of-the-line US weapons, nukes and missiles..... Is definatly what i would call defenceless."

But then he was like:
"Dude, the students during the infidada fought with slapshots and by THROWING ROCKS AT SOLDIERS ARMED WITH M16 AND TANKS...... Yes, this is what i call defenceless."

Yes I know, innocents are also being murdered. THAT IS FOUND ON THE TWO SIDES, NOT ONLY PALESTINIAN INNOCENTS. EVERY WAR, EVERY SINGLE WAR has had innocents killed in it, it is inevitable unless you take the opposing armies into barren fields to face off without attacking cities or people.

Yes I can totally agree with this, this is basically defenceless since rocks rarely kill or are intended to kill someone as opposed to rockets and weapons. It is very sad and angers the fuck out of me, but look at fucking Egypt, Tunisia, wherever; the PROTESTERS ARE BEING KILLED, over 300 deaths or so last time I heard, THAT IS A FUCKING ATROCITY. Rarely anyone talks about it, instead they support the two countries to throw flowers and wear their country's flags as clothing and jumping up and down and throwing rocks wherever while they are being shot in the fucking head. In this case, with this kind of anger fueled a Leftist party MUST rise up and take the opportunity put in front of it and lead the masses to the rightful cause.

I know, Ungovernable, it is sad and atrocious but there is no denying that innocent Israelis were also killed and massacred. If you agree with this then this is basically the only point that we agree on. Forget what I said three days ago if this be the case and take what I say now.

Home-made rockets when used correctly can kill and maim they're not water pistols. They do not have to be targeted at tanks, they can be targeted at Jeeps, soldiers, and other such things. Yet, this is not defenseless because they do not know how to use a rocket launcher, they have that rocket launcher yet they do not know how to use it. You also always disregard their possession of weapons, RPG rockets, bombs, etc. etc. You only say that they have solely home-made weapons which is utterly false.

WHAT THE FUCK? Here you go, another argument of yours refuted:

Now be that what I said about genocide I had directly said otherwise in the very next post:

See that I had been refuting what I said about no massacre/genocide taking place for the last few pages, I was wrong about no massacres taking place, must have had been to sleepy:

Where I again explain the part about no fucking genocide or massacre: Interpreted genocide, as you can see, in another way rather than a simple "crime against humanity", must be because it was around 2-3 am? Here it can be obviously seen that I meant a genocide as in X going to Y and butchering all the defenseless innocent people of Y with direct orders as opposed to say, bombing. Oh and do you see how I admitted that both sides are attacking each other? Good. Do you see that I have been claiming that both sides are butchering each other for the last few days? I bet not.

Oh so you deny that Palestinians have performed genocides against the Israelis?
Do I need to explain this pathetic arguement or shall I keep on quoting it to you in EVERY post even if you withdraw it, as I have?

Genocide: The systematic killing of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, etc.

Many of the links that I had posted contain events, locations, and information on genocides and massacres performed by the Palestinians against the Jews, you are too ignorant and stupid to even read.

The fighters are all labeled as TERRORISTS YOU RETARD. I hope Wikipedia is not Zionist by your standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_a ... estine_War

And this is basically neutral giving both Israeli and Palestinian massacres with different sources, perspectives, and such:
http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/isra ... sacres.htm

Of course they will not repeat the same mistakes as before and claim that they want to kill all Jews and reclaim each and every inch of land taken from them. That is plainly and simply bad PR, it would make them lose their "being massacred and oppressed" image, no one will do that, it backfires. Not only that, but the claim that they want ONE country where Palestinians and Israelis can live free with the same rights is fucking stupid and bullshit, it's just a cover they are using to gain support from people, they can't wait to get rid of each other. Same goes for the Israelis, they act as if they are defenders of justice and equality while their army and Zionism prove them wrong.

Palestine and the Arab world want to see Israel disappear, they don't recognize it as an official nation and they want to destroy it. They want to make a genocide (which they have SUCCESSFULLY managed to do). Works both ways, what does it prove then? THAT BOTH OF THEM ARE FUCKING MURDERERS trying to gain popular support, no one side is the victim so far. Never believe what politicians say is true, always question it.

Minority of extremists? Basically everyone wants to kill the Israelis and the occupational army out of anger and vengeance, not only that but the state in secret MUST support the efforts to get rid of Israel since its people want that, and since the government is pro-Hamas.

Oh yes, I can fully and rightfully say that PALESTINE and the ARABS have committed many genocides, proven above and you can go google during the many wars and also performed by civilians against civilians. You are denying that Palestinians did make massacres and genocides. Fucking stupid.

Oh so you now support genocides against Israeli civilians? Be them forming towns on borders or not, THEY ARE STILL CIVILIANS. They aren't only targeting the towns on the borders, they're targeting cities such as HAIFA. What the fucking hell? You say that butchering people just because they live near the border is OKAY? WHAT THE FUCK!? Yes, go support the murdering of civilians you retarded idiot.

Oh? Shall I continue posting the arguments of yours that have been refuted? Go read the thread again, you only reply with attacks and when you have no more arguments you either change the topic or claim that you will not post again and not reply to any of them. The true facts? YOU CLAIM THAT GENOCIDES by Palestine did not happen, and that defenseless means HAVING FUCKING ROCKETS, WEAPONS AND BOMBS. Just thank me for continuing to debate with such an idiot as yourself before I get bored.

Hm yes, that is true, do you agree on this from Wikipedia then? "Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion.[1] No universally agreed, legally binding, criminal law definition of terrorism currently exists.[2][3] Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those violent acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for a religious, political or ideological goal, deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (civilians), and are committed by non-government agencies."

Targeting civilians with bombing, butchery, murder, and genocide is terrorism. Having a war with innocents killed by accident and not by intention is not terrorism. BOTH sides are killing civilians by intention. Does the Palestinian army even exist? What we have here are individuals and grouping fighting an army. That does not even answer: See? Palestinians do that always, and so do Israelis. If you differentiate the people from the terrorists then you must differentiate by an ARMY and a people.

If you do not differentiate then we have to discuss them as a whole and not split them into factions. If you do want to differentiate between terrorists and the people, then you have to differentiate by the army and the people.

We are not discussing whether or not the Palestinian army is approved of or not, we're discussing the differentiation between people and terrorists, and people and an army. You differentiate between the Palestinian people and the terrorists, yet you do not differentiate between n the Israeli people and the Israeli army.

Liar. You claimed over and over again that israelians did nothing but fight back against the evil arabs who started 4 wars against them. You even quoted a ZIONIST website saying "if israel put down the weapons it will disseapear and if palestine put down weapons everyone will live in peace"[/quote]
DUDE DUDE DUDE DUDE I DID NOT QUOTE THAT STATEMENT BECAUSE I AGREE WITH IT, I QUOTED THE WHOLE POST OF THEIRS AND IT INCLUDED THAT. I quoted it to show you the Israeli perspective, which I say again again again and AGAIN, I DO NOT FUCKING AGREE WITH. I HAVE CLAIMED MANY MANY TIMES THAT ISRAEL HAS DONE ATROCITIES. BUT SINCE YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THAT.

YOU ARE A FUCKING DIPSHIT. I quoted that source to show the Israeli perspective that I NEVER EVER SAID IS TRUE, from the same quote I said it was "weird, but interesting" IN BOLD.

YOU ARE A FUCKING DIPSHIT. I quoted that source to show the Israeli perspective that I NEVER EVER SAID IS TRUE, from the same quote I said it was "weird, but interesting" IN BOLD.

YOU ARE A FUCKING DIPSHIT. I quoted that source to show the Israeli perspective that I NEVER EVER SAID IS TRUE, from the same quote I said it was "weird, but interesting" IN BOLD.

YOU ARE A FUCKING DIPSHIT. I quoted that source to show the Israeli perspective that I NEVER EVER SAID IS TRUE, from the same quote I said it was "weird, but interesting" IN BOLD.

YOU ARE A FUCKING DIPSHIT. I quoted that source to show the Israeli perspective that I NEVER EVER SAID IS TRUE, from the same quote I said it was "weird, but interesting" IN BOLD.

YOU ARE A FUCKING DIPSHIT. I quoted that source to show the Israeli perspective that I NEVER EVER SAID IS TRUE, from the same quote I said it was "weird, but interesting" IN BOLD.

Got it? No? Thought so.

Retarded fuck, I have been repeating the same replies to your same attackso n a strawman (calling me a Zionist and believing I am one, attacking me for providing a link that was off a zionist website that I did not even agree with and claimed it was "weird, but interesting" to show the other side, etc.) where you disregarded THE MILLIONS OF SOURCES I PROVIDED ALONG WITH IT, fucking idiot.

Declaration of Independence of Israel? Oh then all declarations of independence are wrong, since you said so. If trying to achieve independence from another state is so evil, then I suggest you not call yourself an Anarchist for you want us all to live under state rule and not be able to call for independence. Awesome.

"Following the declaration, Moetzet HaAm became the Provisional State Council, which acted as the legislative body for the new state until the first elections in January 1949.

Over the next few days the armies of Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, Lebanon, and Syria invaded Israel, and officially and militarily threatened to occupy the whole of the former Mandate territory, thereby starting the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, known in Israel as the War of Independence (Hebrew: ????? ????????, Milhamat HaAtzma'ut). A truce began on 11 June, but fighting resumed on 8 July and stopped again on 18 July, before restarting in mid-October and finally ending on 24 July 1949 with the signing of the armistice agreement with Syria. By then Israel had retained its independence and increased its land area by almost 50% compared to the 1947 UN Partition Plan."


"The 1948 Arab–Israeli War, known by Israelis as the War of Independence (Hebrew: ????? ????????, Milhemet HaAtzma'ut) or War of Liberation (Hebrew: ????? ???????, Milhemet HaShihrur) was the first in a series of wars fought between the State of Israel and its Arab neighbours in the long-running Arab-Israeli conflict.

The war commenced upon the termination of the British Mandate of Palestine and the Israeli declaration of independence on 15 May 1948, following a period of civil war in 1947–1948. After the Arab rejection of the 1947 UN General Assembly Resolution 181 that would have created an Arab state and a Jewish state side by side, five Arab states - Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria - attacked Israel, which had declared its independence on the eve of final British withdrawal."

READ YOU FUCKING IDIOT, READ.

So trying to be independent from another state is "stealing land", awesome. Then let us not attempt to become independent from any other country otherwise we'd be attacked by Ungovernable here for attempting to achieve independence. This changes the whole perspective.

No. It means two things:
1) You are a fucking idiot to throw a Molotov at a Merkava
2) You had a fucking petrol bomb in hand with the ability to kill someone or many

Okay so the next time I have a Molotov or strapped with a bomb, or wielding an AK, do not call me attacking you for I am defenseless.
Like the Indians in America were defenseless! The Zulus and the Mayans were defenseless! The French were defenseless against the Nazis! The Russians were defenseless against the Nazis. The Vietnamese were defenseless against the Americans! Hizb-Allah was defenseless against the Israelis!

"The Rwandan military and Hutu militia groups, notably the Interahamwe, systematically set out to murder all the Tutsis they could reach, regardless of age or sex, as well as the political moderates among the Hutu. They incited Hutu civilians to participate in the killings or be shot in turn, using radio broadcasts to tell them to kill their Tutsi neighbours. Most nations evacuated their nationals from Kigali and abandoned their embassies in the initial stages of the violence."

"On April 9, UN observers witnessed the massacre of children at a Polish church in Gikondo."

"Most of the victims were killed in their own villages or in towns, often by their neighbors and fellow villagers. The militia typically murdered victims by machetes, although some army units used rifles. The Hutu gangs searched out victims hiding in churches and school buildings, and massacred them. Local officials and government-sponsored radio incited ordinary citizens to kill their neighbors, and those who refused to kill were often murdered on the spot. "Either you took part in the massacres or you were massacred yourself."[29]"

"One such massacre occurred at Nyarubuye. On April 12, more than 1,500 Tutsis sought refuge in a Catholic church in Nyange, then in Kivumu commune. Local Interahamwe, acting in concert with the authorities, used bulldozers to knock down the church building.[30] The militia used machetes and rifles to kill every person who tried to escape. Local priest Athanase Seromba was later found guilty and sentenced to life in prison by the ICTR for his role in the demolition of his church; he was convicted of the crime of genocide and crimes against humanity.[30][31][32] In another case, thousands sought refuge in the École Technique Officielle (Technical School) in Kigali where Belgian UNAMIR soldiers were stationed. On April 11, the Belgian soldiers withdrew, and Rwandan armed forces and militia killed all the Tutsi.[33]"

"Because of the chaotic situation, there is no consensus on the number of people killed between April 6 and mid-July. Unlike the genocides carried out by Nazi Germany and by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, authorities made no attempts to record deaths. The succeeding RPF government has stated that 1,071,000 were killed, 10% of whom were Hutu. The journalist Philip Gourevitch agrees with an estimate of one million, while the UN estimates the toll as 800,000. Alex de Waal and Rakiya Omar of African Rights estimate the number as "around 750,000," while Alison Des Forges of Human Rights Watch states that it was "at least 500,000." James Smith of Aegis Trust notes, "What's important to remember is that there was a genocide. There was an attempt to eliminate Tutsis — men, women, and children — and to erase any memory of their existence."[34]It is estimated that about 300,000 Tutsi survived the genocide. Thousands of widows, many of whom were subjected to rape, are now HIV-positive. There were about 400,000 orphans and nearly 85,000 of them were forced to become heads of families."

That's what you call being fucking defenseless, when you are attacking with machetes and rifles when you cannot attack them back, when you cannot fight for your life, when you are sought at your home and even at hiding where you witness your children being deliberately killed when you can do nothing. It was no accident of bombing, it was a fucking massacre, they went into homes, schools, churches, cellars, hospitals and murdered EVERYONE and EVERYTHING that moved, that could not defend himself. THAT CANNOT BE COMPARED TO THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT, neither side did this. READ BEFORE YOU FUCKING REPLY.

What? Explains and proves nothing. Quote me that I said Israel never killed innocents. Still waiting.

You're comparing a fucking butchery such as that of Rwanda to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The fuck are you on you idiot? Do you see Israelis going out with machetes to exterminate every child, woman, and man in every school, home, and hole? FUCK NO.

But fighting back does not make you guilty if you are being approached by someone that is going to shoot you and your family. Israeli soldiers do not go into homes with the intention of killing every living thing, leaving no one alive. If that is the case then there would be no Palestine.

YOU RETARDED FUCKING STUPID PIECE OF SHIT, THAT WAS A QUOTE FROM THAT LINK THAT I WAS POINTING TO. I NEVER SAID THAT MY SELF YOU FUCKING IMBECILE. SEE WHAT ATTACKING A STRAWMAN IS? You fucking make shit up and claim that I said that and believe in that yet I DO NOT. That was a quote by someone who posted on that website you fucking illiterate moron, I did not say that.

YOU FUCKING IDIOT, here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_War_of_Independence
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinai_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_day_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

"The war commenced upon the termination of the British Mandate of Palestine and the Israeli declaration of independence on 15 May 1948, following a period of civil war in 1947–1948. After the Arab rejection of the 1947 UN General Assembly Resolution 181 that would have created an Arab state and a Jewish state side by side, five Arab states - Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria - attacked Israel, which had declared its independence on the eve of final British withdrawal."

Can land be stolen? What if the people called their independence, shall we not allow them to become independent? These are serious questions that I am asking and in now way make me defend anyone so don't go all "DURRRR HE SAID THAT DURRRR".

So all anti-Palestine propaganda is Zionist propaganda, and all pro-Palestine propaganda is 100% true facts...

:facepalm: This guy is a fucking moron. Do I have to EXPLAIN FOR THE MILLIONTH FUCKING TIME!?

OH MY FUCKING GOD
OH MY FUCKING GOD
OH MY FUCKING GOD
OH MY FUCKING GOD
OH MY FUCKING GOD
OH MY FUCKING GOD
HE THINKS I WROTE THAT!
OH MY FUCKING GOD
YOU ARE A RETARD!

I'm going to go fucking crazy, this guy is the dumbest FUCK I have ever debated with.

Idiot, idiot, what more can I say to such a person?

1948 Independence War, Israel declared war on all the Arabs?
ZIONIST WEBSITE WAS TO SHOW YOU WHAT THEY THINK YOU FUCKING MORON NOT WHAT I SUPPORT.
ISRAEL DID NOT START THE WAR, IT WAS THE ARABS WHO DECLARED WAR YOU IDIOTIC PIECE OF SHIT.
THE PALESTINIANS STARTED HOSTILITIES AFTER THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE OF ISRAEL.
THE ISRAELIS HAVE A RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, NOT DECLARE WAR WITHOUT A REASON.

:facepalm:
If the jailed person was innocent and not an Anarchist and did nothing wrong THEN I SHOULD SUPPORT HIM NO MATTER WHAT. But if the jailed person went out and bombed people and killed people THEN I DON'T GIVE A SHIT. Supporting the liberation of Palestine and allowing it to form its own state is absolutely NOT the same as liberating a person who CANNOT form a state, even as much as he would wish to. Refuted.

....

You idiotic fucking moron, YOU said that Anarchist MUST fight against ALL wars, I said that it was STUPID to fight against ALL wars. Capiche or are you still laundering at your fucking STUPID arguments? If you want to oppose ALL wars then you are a fucking reformist Pacifist, which I really predict you are. You want to oppose ALL wars, saying that, you still support a war.... Huh? Refuted.

I see, in that case I would not participate and would rather form an actual anti-government Anarchist protest rather than joining sides with reformist Liberals and reactionaries.

Oh snap, you want to join reactionaries, liberals, fascists, Nazis, Anarcho-Cappies, pro-government protesters then be my guest. You're helping them to achieve their goal. Idiot.

That is the reason why we are still in our current state and not advancing a single inch, Anarchists are fighting for minor reforms or changes rather than fighting for the ultimate cause and goal. That is what is further distancing Anarchists from achieving Anarchy: their focus on the branches rather than the trunk.

If you want to support anything other than Anarchism and Marxism then be my fucking guest. Anarchists fighting against a war? Yeah, not a waste of time at all. Anarchists in solidarity with Palestine? Let them start a fucking organization or revolution there instead of advocating their ruining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_strike

Oh yes, maybe because after reading your pathetic strawmen and "arguments" I was forming my ideas whilst doing so? Oh, weird coincidence.
NONE of your arguments stood up, wait YOU NEVER HAD AN ACTUAL ARGUMENT.

Turns out it is a rumor as far as I am concerned. The point still remains, there was a vast uproar concerning the threats, initial word was that it was Bin Ladin who had threatened chatholic schools and Christian towns.

All that above from only just two posts, want more?

Yes and that is why there's something known as "lockdowns" and freaking whenever they get threats of bombs such as in stadiums, museums, schools, etc. This is a nation-wide scale directly following the severe and deteriorating state after the splitting (yet again) of the parliament and the ousting of Saad Al-Hariri who had most of the Sina with him.

You fucking retard, it I explained as above AND STOP REPLYING WITH BASELESS FUCKING STRAWMEN, WHERE THE FUCK DID YOU GET IT THAT I GOT MY INFO OFF THE INTERNET?

Same as above.

Changes nothing, threats were made, people panicked, army and security forces went crazy.

Form an argument? YOU ARE THE MOST FUCKING IDIOTIC PERSON ON EARTH. How do you even call informing you of a nation-wide threat of bombing when it had happened in all of Lebanon's history, especially the many, many bombings and assassinations post 2005. Idiotic fuck.

"to justify a war and pretend it is good for the palestinians"

No matter how many times you explain it to him, he's still a fucking idiot.

" One thing is sure : you're not an anarchist, you are a zionist pro-war sectarian elitist dumbass."
Attacking baseless strawmen seems to be your favorite past time activity.

"And you're probably very young, seeing how stupid your opinions are and how you can't back your arguments full of flaws."
So said the one who cannot read, interpret, understand, provide arguments, and hold his own.

Oh and forgive me for not replying sooner, electricity sucks.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

@ ungovernable : it might be best to just ignore him or at least this particular debate as it's never going to end.


On Egypt, yeah I agree I didn't expect it to take off like this. Pretty intense pictures up there. At most I was thinking it would be like in Tunisia where a day or two later people would barely talk about it anymore. I wish them luck and safety.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Age doesn't really matter, you are older than me and much more of an idiot.

Just because none support my opinion on being anti-Palestinian and anti-Israeli (you obviously are not) does not mean I have to not even explain my position. Should you want to claim that then because the majority of the human population or any country's population do not agree with us then we must at once stop attempting to change anything.

Yes, obviously you're anti-Palestinian, oh yes that is very obvious. Support them in their fight against tyranny? If you want to rid them of tyranny, then give them an Anarchist revolution, otherwise you change nothing.

Oh so under a dictatorship an Anarchist revolution cannot take place? How marvelous. So you are saying that in order to even hint at an Anarchist revolution there needs to be a Democratic Republic in place to even allow thinking? Oh yes, we've all seen how effective being a Democratic Republic really is. Changes nothing really other than a thought of security, that too is very arguable seeing the start of the formation of police states and the rule of only two major parties in the United States and other such cases in other countries. Democracy no more helps Anarchism than under a dictatorship, censors exist everywhere.

"Riots, looting, cases of rape, hundreds killed and injured, criminals breaking out of jail, the Cairo Museum being looted, fighters flying low over the skies of Tahrir Square Cairo." Google it yourself, do not have the time to look it up, I have heard of cases of rape on the news (LBC, Al-Jazeera), rape I cannot find any sources for sadly. Murder, theft, etc. can be easily found anywhere be it on the internet or the television.

If they have approached the army and the police with violence as they have been shot at it would have struck fear into the opposition to dare and enter into a practical battlefield between the protesters and the military. The pro-Mubarak protesters are not only restricted to hired men and police officers, some Egyptians I know genuinely support Mubarak. The two sides of the protesters have been throwing Molotovs at each other, it is arguably claimed that the pro-Mubarak protesters did start with the attacks, nevertheless it is unfortunate that infighting between the people has to take place rather than a united front attempting to achieve a common goal. No, the Spanish revolution of 1936 was a direct opposition to the rising tide of pro-Franco fascists, the revolution was not only restricted to Anarchists by the way for there were "neutral" fighters, Marxists, Stalinists, etc. Egypt is a popular rising against a long-term dictator, not an encroaching dictator, where it has been fucked up and is slowly turning into random violence as can be seen. The events after Spanish revolution resulted in a war, this is not a war as of yet and until then we cannot consider it as so.

As for your claim that the pro-Mubarak protesters are paid by the regime or they are police officers, I have heard of the two things you propose but none of them would really count to the number of the pro-Mubarak protesters, they are many and no doubt a large number of them would be genuine rather than hired men that could even deceive those who bribe them and not even participate. Thing is that the people are throwing Molotovs at each other rather than at the police or the army, starting theft, and even destroying the Museum, I do not speak only of it now but also before, they should have been violent against the army and the police more than they are against the pro-Mubarak protesters at the moment.

Obviously not. It is no excuse to start throwing bombs at each other and drowning the country in shit, that is a sign of lack of popular unity and a grievous one indeed as seeing the number of counter-revolutionaries.

What? Do you mean that I said that "we should not stop fighting against the counter-revolution" and then "I accused the people fighting against it to be counter-revolutionary"? If so then this is not the case, the pro-Mubarak protesters and the anti-Mubarak protester are counter-revolutionary by our standards, they do not fight for the Anarchist cause or any Leftist cause that can be considered in actuality "revolutionary". This is merely protests attempting to oust a single leader, not attempting to fight for a greater and more long-term cause. I shall explain further, we should not stop fighting all those who oppose the Anarchist/Leftist cause, the Egyptian protests is not considered "revolutionary" as we consider it. This also sees to the need of the unity of a majority in order to have a complete alternative system rather than as we can see in Egypt: the population split into two or more fractions. The majority who has been united need to fight for the same long-term cause, not a brief momentous goal of ousting a leader and then going back to work as usual everyday, it needs to be a constant fight till you can achieve your goal. The pro-Mubarak protesters that you claim to be police officers and bribed men, if we take it in this case then there is no need to actually burn them or kill them for when Mubarak has been ousted they will, if not genuine fall apart, and if genuine create a new obstacle in which case there must be resistance by the anti-Mubarak protesters.

*facepalm*
Again with the Zionist website...

Find me an insult of mine directed at you before any of these were said:

Hypocrite.

Against war? Pacifism at its best.
Let them resist then, it's their right and it is their war that they are fighting, but they are obliged to bear the consequences of their actions, I can say that much. As for the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict it was not Israel who started the war, it was the Arabs. No matter how much you twist it and mangle it and claim "stolen land", which every country has had a part in, it is still a fact that the Arabs declared war no matter how just or unfair it sounds.

1) What stolen lands? No countries, no states, no fucking borders.
2) All states are illegitimate and must be abolished, being based on a religious book changes nothing.
3)Works the other way around too "That the Israelis are free to have their own nation recognized internationally like other countries even if you're against state, you can't accept that lands are being stolen for many reasons". Proves nothing, how can we support their decisions to form a state when we clearly oppose and want to abolish all states? That is stupid.
4) Yes, let them have their own nation then if that is what you want, but this will not be in the positive area, advantage, nor anywhere NEAR achieving our final goal of Anarchism. They need to be enlightened.
5) Against Palestinian state, true. Anti-Israeli state too. Israel shouldn't exist nor should Palestine exist. Lands should be given back to the people, not Palestine. That is the correct Anarchist thought without being either pro-Palestine nor pro-Israel. To be pro-Palestine you would demand that the lands be given to Palestine, to be pro-Israel you demand that Palestine be abolished and turned into Israel. I support the first.
6) The occupation is not helping Palestine, I was speaking economically after the war should an annexation take place. But yes, again, the occupation is not helping Palestine.
7) Let them fight back, but then they cannot take the role of the victim and act defenseless (read my other post for further emphasis)

Here you go.

Read my other post, and read "had withdrawn" and "which I do not make", and that of which I did not mean such as your claims that I am a Zionist, that I think that the occupation and the current state of things is helping Palestine, that I demand that Israel occupy Palestine etc. etc. I did say no such things, read again what you quoted and read what you claimed.

Again, and again with the Zionist website, I had quoted that to ridicule the comments following it that "if Palestine put down its weapons, the Israelis would stop the war" but you clearly cannot understand that and resort to calling me a Zionist and claiming that it is a sin to even REFER to Zionist website no matter the reason mentioned.

No actually, I said that because people generally weren't following the debate, and as a result are confused as to what we were talking about. They will need to read all out posts since we are replying point-by-point rather than posting in an essay form of sorts which can be easier on the new participant. I do not really care if people actually agree with me or not, changes nothing really and proves nothing other than that a majority disagree with me for whatever reasons they may have.

Avoidance of arguments ? You are HILARIOUS. i answered ALL OF YOUR ARGUMENTS, give me a single argument that i didn't answer. LIAR.[/quote]
Read my other post, too. I can go on and on about all the topic that you have "given up on" and moved to others until finally attacking strawmen and calling me a Zionist.

------

Until proven that Israel had declared the initial war that started all this conflict, my point will stay. And no, that was not found on a Zionist website, it is off of Wikipedia, which I hope you do not claim that it is being infiltrated by Zionist bloggers.

Land is always being stolen, if you want to take it up with someone about the land given to Israel by the UN then by all means go argue with those who planned it. Theft of land matters little to the given argument, given that you claim that the Arabs did not start the war, which in fact is quite apparent to anyone who can read that the Arabs did declare war on Israel. "It is totally normal that the Arabs declared war on them" As you can see, you even proved yourself wrong, the act of war was initiated by the Arabs, not the Israelis. The Israelis bought land and was given to them by the UN as far as I know, it wasn't a military force taking land from innocent civilians as it is today.

You included invasion, the killing of my family. An invasion (military) is an automatic declaration of war, Israel did not invade Palestine and kill families, it was the other way around: The Arabs declared war in opposition to the UN's decision to partition the land give half-most of it to the Israelis, where then the Arabs did attack the Israelis, and that is after the many riots and massacres being done against the Jews in Israel-Palestine (links found scattered in the thread). But let us say that the people of Ungovernable decided to obtain land by UN decision in Lebanon and form a state and a country of theirs in Lebanon, I personally would not have a beef with them unless they decide to encroach upon the other towns and start killing people. We already have some of that sort, the Palestinian refugee camps mainly. They have tracts of land all for them, they have militias and "mayors" also, they are practically independent from the Lebanese state. Do you see us declaring war on them? No, the state gave them land because they needed it, when they wanted more and to even turn Lebanon into a battlefield against Israel such as in the Lebanese Civil War, they were repelled by the autonomous and united Lebanese militias (Battle of Tal El Zaatar, Dikweneh, Furn El Chebek, Dbayeh, Antelias, Achrafieh, Beirut, Souk El Gharb, Holiday Inn fighting and massacres, etc. etc.)

Basically 18 years old, birthday is this month. I do listen and I do concede and even alter my views on different subjects along time as have seen and as is the reason why you call me a "hypocrite".

Attacking strawmen, your favorite past time activity.

Yes, I explained it in my other post, turns out Osama Bin Laden being responsible for the threats was basically a rumor, which I apologize for, but that does not deny the fact that the country was alarmed, panicked, and infuriated for many days.

Seeing as you continued attacking and arguing after I had even attempted to end this debate, I take that as you want to continue for I am ever so ready to do so.

---------------

It matters little if I live in Lebanon or not, but in fact I do live in Lebanon, moderators can actually check my IP address to confirm that. I also can speak the language and can supply any information or "proof" of my residence over here. You also say that what I had said about my life and other shit is bullshit? Ah well, I cannot really convince you otherwise and doing so no one would really give a shit about my experiences since it matters not, but if you want further "backing" to what you call bullshit then just ask.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Crude post, but it will do, off to work now.

Ooh, gaah, defending my home and olive plantation is defending private property! Gaah, I'll just let them steal and tear down my home then.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Punkmar77:
Where did you find these outstanding pictures? Of course it's a terrible situation, but what intensity in them!

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Ungovernable since when age matters ? Also, care to give me some good documentarys about Isreal/Palestian problem ?

Anyway, isnt' today a deadline for Mubarak to give up his president rank ?