Middle Eastern Revolutions!

Re: Riots in Cairo

Shit, actually a bit short on time I guess I have to play the part of a peacekeeper today:
Please everyone refrain from generalisations and the too easy who's-anarchist-who's-not-pissing-contest - I think it's not necessary by now.
As far as I see it we have something of an issue of understanding here, about what "support" is and how it should be given and why - but as far as I am concerned, the statements given fit in my humble anarchist view of the world - the point in question is realism and maybe a bit of experience besides the attitude.
Jack, I don't see any racism in another persons statement - he mentions the "extremists" in the area - not the people of those countries, he just didn't answered your statement directly:

Having been there or being of middle eastern descent doesn't proves anything in itself, there was another member on this forum actually living in the area - and actually defending muslim extremism...
another person and I have been there too and I think we agree on the obvious anarchist basics - we just discuss the more or less important details - so we managed to clarify the "support" thingie quite a bit.
He shouldn't have called you a troll - I agree with this, but I think you survived it and for Anarchists' sake...
+ + =

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Water under the bridge.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Means whot? - I come from behind the seven mountains, ya know...

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

@Random Person:

good, happy that we're of the same opinion here. because thats basically what I said. I don't think that non-anarchos are not able to do a revolution, I just said that supporting people directly (not only by solidarity, in the best case by direct struggle and so on...) will benefit the movement or the ideology.
maybe the example was a bit shitty... people need to recognise your help of course.... take food not bombs for example. basically the same. you help people who suffer worse than you to have a better life (in this case: food). people will be concerned and think different about you, compared to a meeting on the street, where they will only see your ''different'' style and so on...

nevertheless, it's not useful to only join ''known struggles'' like the mentioned marxist/leftist/anarchist ones, because then your chances to change ANYTHING are basically lower/zero. suffering wordwide should not be tolerated at all. only focussing on one single point won't help much further, i guess...
of course, no one can be at every single struggle for freedom, but for the sake of mental support, help the people, especially in a critical phase like in tunisia for example, where the government plays on time and the first people are already sick of the conflict...

not sure if it's understandable, not much time at the moment...

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Besides the off-topix just a little bit about Hizb'allah - "my time" in Jordan covered the end phase of the libanese civil war between 1984 - 1988, during which hizb'allah rose so quickly out of nothing, 1500 iranian pasdaran and thousands of well payed libanese, jordanians, palestinians united with the amal militias against the already crumbling fatah - ending up with those absolutely hizb'allah controlled "security quarters in southern libanon?
We were receiving hundreds of fugitives then, most of them didn't ever fight or even oppose the hizb'allah or the amal, they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time and had to go - or else...
I can't identify the truth in western anti-muslim-propaganda but the following gives me much to think about and it fits in with most I hear from people that came to germany after leaving the near east:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
"Still funded by Iran they "organize an extensive social development program and run hospitals, news services, educational facilities, and encouragement of Nikah mut‘ah (fixed-term marriage in Shi'a Islam) One of its established institutions, Jihad Al Binna's Reconstruction Campaign, is responsible for numerous economic and infrastructure development projects in Lebanon. Hezbollah has set up a Martyr's Institute (Al-Shahid Social Association), which guarantees to provide living and education expenses "for the families of fighters who die" in battle. An IRIN news report of the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs noted:
"Hezbollah not only has armed and political wings - it also boasts an extensive social development program. Hezbollah currently operates at least four hospitals, twelve clinics, twelve schools and two agricultural centres that provide farmers with technical assistance and training. It also has an environmental department and an extensive social assistance program. Medical care is also cheaper than in most of the country's private hospitals and free for Hezbollah members."
And:
"Hezbollah says that the main source of its income comes from donations by Muslims. Hezbollah receives substantial amounts of financial, training, weapons, explosives, political, diplomatic, and organizational aid from Iran and Syria. According to reports released in February 2010, Hezbollah received $400 million dollars from Iran. The US estimates that Iran has been giving Hezbollah about US$60–100 million per year in financial assistance. Other estimates are as high as $200-million annually.
Hezbollah has relied also on funding from the Shi'ite Lebanese Diaspora in West Africa, the United States and, most importantly, the Triple Frontier, or tri-border area, along the junction of Paraguay, Argentina, and Brazil. U.S. law enforcement officials have identified an illegal multimillion-dollar cigarette-smuggling fund raising operation and a drug smuggling operation."

For the Hamas (the sunnit equivalent) the same applies: Relation- and community building based on the poverty and perspectivlessness of the people living in the area - using the religious and cultural commonalities to build up acceptance and later - a theocracy like iran?
Maybe they don't suppress opposition openly now, but according to the very smart approach to power they've shown now for years I would say it's just a matter of time untill they feel strong enough to claim peoples hearts and minds - and root out any opposition. Maybe they will fight each other again competeting for supremacy or the old enmity between sunnits and shiites - I can't be sure, the media is controlled and most of my information I get from fugitives now living in our area and their point of view about whats going on.

Generally I would say, the main and crucial mistake of the fatah was to remain ignorant to the palestinian peoples need for education and a minimum of economic security as a base for a truly revolutionary movement. The fatah produced thousands of illiterate soldiers payed for service, trained hundreds of (then) marxist/leninist foreigners like me or the activist core of the german RAF - and nutzis like the infamous "wehrsportgruppe hoffman" too - for a fight nobody really ever believed in - except perhaps for some functionaries and officials busily filling their own pockets. The small chance of a successful military solution without a serious internal weakening of israel's superiority was never really realistic.
I recovered from my marxist/leninist ignorance and I honestly think that we should step up to fill this gap by giving support to groups, communities and individuals outside the unacceptable main players organisations, from an anarchist point of view it's impossible to choose between beelzebub and satan and its useless too because it won't change nothing. Since the early seventies the chaos of the struggle in the near east is a history of competeting organisations fighting rather each other than the real cause and the really bad thing about it is, that the people whose suffering and repression motivated this struggle are demoted to something less than a strategic pie to be distributed amongst the competitors for power.
Personally I don't believe in an armed struggle that could be successful in palestine right now, as I said before - not against the technological sueriority of israel and it's western supporters. The area lacks the strategic opportunities for a successful guerilla war, it's too densly populated and to easy controllable by technical means and both main sides already have shown an absolute disregard for any number of non-combatant victims.
Agent Oranges comparison of direct action like foodnotbombs is more than fitting and I think this could be a way to ease the peoples suffering and on the other side radicalize and emancipate them to help themselves instead of falling for the authoritarian/religious/foreign rat catchers. Supporting the people with projects like my still beloved "clean water for assuan" project in egypt as a start for an educational and economic development strategy are difficult to organize and maybe quite a bit dangerous to carry out/realize - but it would mean more than declarations of solidarity and swinging flags in front of european embassys.
Random person is right, the fight in palestine is the palestinians fight and they are the only ones that should decide their own fate in the future. I think we should help them regaining their self determination as much as we can, even if it means to support interim solutions like "democratic" states remaining in tunesia, egypt or the palestinian autonomy regions, as the maybe necessary interim opportunity for raising peoples consciousness about the real problem.
Critiques please...

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

The Hizb-allah - Fatah - Amal conflict was considered minor as compared to other such conflicts of the Lebanese Forces, Kataeb, Tigers, PLO, and the like it's paractically never raised during such conversations of the Lebanese Civil War. I tend to lean to the militaristic style of the Lebanese Forces, it was practically an army rather than a militia, they were able to stand against the superior Syrian army and even against the Lebanese army which was being headed by General Michael Aoun who would have turned the country into a hell hole.

Yeah, they're doing some good but it's mostly in the South and strictly restricted to Muslim sections of the country and villages near the border to garner support from the people inhabiting the villages there. Concerning the money they've been receiving and the weapons being supplied to them, there's an increasing fear and tension between them and the Sina, as can be seen on the news after the recent parliamentary fuck up. Threats are being used to coerce people and parliamentary members, threats that the events of the uprising of last year will be repeated. A reason why I do not support that is because they promote the formation of an Islamic state.

That's probably very foreseeable in both countries, tensions are rising over here too. The "tactic" they've applied is useful it seems, they're gaining popular support and even military support from other countries and within, it's only a matter of time as you said before they plan a revolt and take power into their own hands.

You seem to have had a very interesting life, Vassily.
The politics of the Middle-East is really fucked up, religion and historical hatred has been integrated into politics and parties. You cannot support for example Hizb-allah without supporting Islam, or the Lebanese Forces without supporting Christianity. That is the very reason why I prefer not to even participate or talk of Lebanese politics, Palestinian politics even more. "since the early seventies the chaos of the struggle in the near east is a history of competing organizations fighting rather each other than the real cause and the really bad thing about it is, that the people whose suffering and repression motivated this struggle are demoted to something less than a strategic pie to be distributed amongst the competitors for power." Exactly, exactly what you said. It's no more support for ideologies and causes more than it is adhering to prove that X is stronger than Y. It's FUBAR as we believe, the Lebanese Civil War literally divided the country into districts according to religion, the Muslims live in the South and part of Beirut while the Christians living in the North and the other part of Beirut. People are scared of each other, think of it as during the Black enslavement in the USA, districts for Whites and districts for Blacks. The religious division is very severe. Now the Palestinian conflict with Israel isn't proving to be effective and is giving them more of a reason for bombardments and besieging against Palestine by the Israelis. There needs to be a form of guerrilla warfare, but as you said the population is too high and the death of innocents cannot be avoided given that there will also be mass starvation and lack of medical attention.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

I see another Shitfight approaching...

@ungovernable:

there are some idiots around at times, yes, but I don't think that your reaction is absolutely appropriate...
the core of a discussion should be the exchange of opinions rather than pressing the own opinion upon the ''enemy'' (note: enemy, not partner in the discussion!), even if you have said it for a thousand times it won't give you the right to insult someone or to think that you are right about anything...
generally. as mentioned, discussion=/=war!

at least thats the impression I have on this shit...

@Random Person:

although I've just defended you, I'm basically of the ungovernables opinion. please just consider that this elitism or w/e you may call it is not going to work at all. except if you gonna bring on nuclear holocaust upon all not-like-you-thinking humans. you simply NEED to fight for a better world, even if these victorys are just small, they help others to live a BETTER live than before. this should be reason enough to motivate you to keep fighting. everything that helps is worth supporting.
even though a democracy is not what you will strive for, a dictatorship or a system of constant war is even WORSE than democracy. sometimes there are small steps towards an aim.
the final revolution won't take place at once.
so, in my opinion, one needs first to create some acceptance for the own position, what can be reached by helping these people. showing them that you are much more tolerant than most others. that you don't need a reason to support people except for that they are living beings that deserve a better live, better conditions and so on...

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

That does not hinder the fact that they are supporting them, I do not care for which reason they do but it is there: they are supporting Hamas and Fatih.

So if it happened 500 years ago we must forget that the Americas were stolen from the natives? Or because it is somehwat different and not coming from a religious book we must accept it? Being based on a religious book is nothing more severe than having immigrants (during the conquest of the Americas) slaughtering natives by the masses, the fight for Palestine is no more "unfair" than the fights from 500 years ago and so I reiterate again: many countries are based on stolen land.

It is stupid, did I say otherwise? No. Do you adhere by the Anarchist motto "No borders, no countries"? But then again you claim that I do not acknowledge the fight of the PALESTINIANS against the ISRAELIS, I do, it is a must and it is their right but I it does not concern me more than what is happening all over the world. It is their fight, not mine.

Hamas to proclaim that must be a front or a "face" they have set up in order to gain popular support. They will not accept that an inch of land taken by Israel wil lstay with the Israelis, nor will the conflict end there. As you have said both of the people, the Israeli and the Palestinian, can never live together in harmony due to what has happened and what is happening. Just take a look at many of the commentary of any Middle-Eastern politcial figre or any Arab (extremist Muslim in particular) and you will hear that he will call Israel "al souhyoun" or "the enemy" even on the news. Any and all contact with Israel would be considered treason and there is the threat of a death sentence or imprisonment for an undetermined amount of time.

for the 1 millionth time, i don't support terrorists and i dont want them to take the power.

I know, you are not doing it directly, but you are supporting people who are supporting such extremist organizations who probably will form an Islamic government with laws and decisions being ruled upon by the Sheikhs.

I do not know much of the PLF, so I cannot comment on what they had and had not done, but I can definately speak of what had occurred during the Lebanese Civil War between the Communists and the PLO and other such organizations if need be.

Because the number of Anarchists and Atheist was low and most of them were underground. I'd like to see an Atheist Anarchist go proclaim he is such in Syria or pre-invasion Palestine then.

No it is no legitimate reason, no war done by one state against another simply due to religious causes is legitimate. To tolerate war, you're changing the perspective now. No one spoke of toleration of the way, we cannot simply sit blindly and gaily and watch them as they blow each other up, I was speaking of offering support in the way of waving flags and shouting out useless slogans and calling out support and solidarity with the Palestinians. For them to have my support, there needs to be a prominent or a rising Leftists party that can actually alter the direction of the "revolution" to our side, without that party I will not offer my support but I will give my opinion and debate about Palestine and Israel. How can I support a people that are going in a false direction that is against our every, every single point we fight for and even commend them for doing so? That is stupid. They have the right to fight back and I can say it is right, but in no way do I offer support or advocate their want of a formation of an Islamic state created by either Hamas or Fatih.

Oh ok so we shouldnt support any people fighting against imperialism because all country in this world want a state... Thats what i said, you only want to support anarchist so you support nobody... Anarchists should just stop fighting against the war, we should fight alone on our side and nobody will join our cause because we dont join any cause except our's... THATS RIDICULOUS[/quote]

Hitting the damned branches does nothing, if you want to fight imperialism then start a revolution in the USA, or the UK, don't hit the puppet states. I will support any Anarchist or Marxist revolution, other than that I will not support any of their petty revolutions that do nothing other than a few reforms that will suit the middle-class rather than the workers at best. No, you should not fight alone, did the Russian Marxists fight alone? Of course not! They were joined by non-Marxists as well as at first by Anarchists even. What about the Spanish Civil War? Do you think it was only Anarchists and Marxists that fought and went through the war? Oh wait, do you then, want us to fight along with Nazis and racists fighting for the emancipation and the separation of their country from the colored people? Or what about supporting Islamic revolutions as you are doing now?

"You do not help your enemy when you are at war"

Those concrete matters such as organizing locally and globally, do you realize how disorganized the Anarchists are? Matters such as opposing the state, with protests if you will, but by hell let them do something instead of giving out support for a foreign country opposing all our views and goals. We will not get anything from the support of the Palestinians except the formation of a state that will become an obstacle in the future and a means of oppression against the Palestinian populace. The thing is that we realize the problems of the state and yet you support the formation of a state, or is it as you attempt to change a few words by claiming that you only support the people?

That is the problem, you are supporting the people who are adhering to false and self-destroying ideologies of religion and politics that will kill them when they do achieve what they want. The emancipation of the Palestinian people will only be successful if it is performed and lead by Anarchist ideology or Marxist ideology, otherwise they'd end up in a hellhole even worse than before. I am not against protests, I do not know if I sounded that way, but I am against the waving of flags and the shouting of slogans of support whilst doing nothing really to improve the Palestinian cause such as spreading the word, taking part in direct action over there, etc. etc.

Protests attempt to bring popular attention, but they mostly fail due to the media and ill representation of the protesters as terrorists when they throw Molotovs, rocks, and break windows. Not only that but the protests that are held are in no way explained by the media except with a few lines rather than explaining the reasons that they have rallied against/with.

I know, it's mostly an Israeli concentrated group, I have heard some shit about them but I do not recall what has been said and I will not bother myself with what has been said. The Anarchists Against The Wall are purely there to free the Palestinian people from Israeli occupation, I commend them for doing sop because they actually LIVE there and are at least able to do something to stop that occupation (throwing rocks on walls), but still my criticism would be as said before. Moreover, they are practically unheard of in the media, or at least over here.

ONE war will stop, MANY wars will still come. I can do nothing to support the Iraqis nor the Afghanistanis, if I did I would be labeled a terrorist and shot. Chechnya is supporting the formation of an Islamic state which as we know so well is far worse than the fallacity of Christianity. Same applies to all of them, read my post.

Nice argument, but no, hopefully if there should be an actual revolution I will take part in it directly. You people wave flags and call for the end of the war. And egoist? Please, do you see menot supporting others with a meaningful cause? If people want to go to hell, shall I support them for their decision? Of course not, I will attempt to direct them in the other direction and actually free them.

They are not supposed to fight against ALL wars, if that is the case then let us halt the Palestinians from defending themselves. Fighting against all forms of imperialism is something I can agree with, but only if done right and once and for all such as targeting the trunk instead of the branches.

The jailed person is not a country, nor an organization, nor millions of people heading in the wrong direction. He's an individual, we can actually support him for doing so we will not be promoting a state based on religion, no, we would be giving him his right to freedom if he deserves it. Comparing an individual being arrested to millions of people attempting to found a state based on religion is not only stupid, but idiotic.

Oh no, of course not, a revolution will not happen in a country under occupation that's being destroyed and oppressed by a foreign power, oh no, it will only happen when they get their independence. That argument is stupid. Being oppressed and being destroyed by a foreign power is more than a reason for a revolution to take place as opposed to having a revolution when you have your independence through other means.
Why you ask? Simply because upon acheiving independence through Hamas for example, the people would have put and still put full trust and faith into Hamas and the newly formed government eagerly awaiting what heavenly changes will they bring and the fiery and angry spirits of the people will have long since faded leaving no room for any revolution to take place. By having a revolution you will DIRECTLY achieve independence if done right.

WAY worse is over-exaggerated. There is no denying that conditions are bad in Palestine, but there is also no denying that there are many countries that are facing equal conditions and thousands of other problems that cannot be tolerated by Anarchists, especially what is happening in Africa.

What? What dose the exodus of 1967 have to do with a revolution? It was the midst of the Six Day war, not dealing with a revolution of any sort except an invasion.

Wars, bombs, and people dying will NOT cease after the emancipation of the Palestinian people. To think that is even not only Utopian, but impossible.

No I have not heard of Anarchists being against all wars. Let's all turn Pacifist then. If it is government-made wars you speak of, which I think is the case, then we should oppose it but it will be of no effect and they will NEVER end the war just because a few of us opposed it. Take the Vietnamese War, the whole damned country went against the government, they did not end the war until they had suffered enough casualties, failing conditions, and lack of support from the country.
It was not solely or importantly because of the anti-war masses. To end all wars, you have to end all governments, to end classes. Continuously attempting to oppose and fight single government-made wars is not only useless, but ineffective and is a waste of everyone's time. As long as there are competing government with competing interests, there will always be war. So I ask again: No countries, no borders. Heard of it?

Yes that is the reason why there needs to be a proper Leftist organization/party to enlighten them.

Nice arguement there. People are dying every day and it has nothing to do with wars and Anarchists. I say it again: Even if Israel is gone (and asking WHY and HOW is of real importance) people would still be suffering under the new regime (also depends on the type of regime, state, rulers) which would then render all the Anarchist effort vain.

Dude, LESS FUCKING AD HOMINEM ATTACKS. Either give me a counter-argument in order to have a proper debate or do not even reply with such attacks that do not even prove your point but intend to attack the opponent.

They have a reason and a right to fight, but I do not have a justified reason to fight in a war which is not even mine because I would not be avenging anyone nor fighting for the freedom of the people, I would be fighting to support their end result which is the formation of a STATE. I will only fight with them if they are fighting for an ACTUAL JUST END RESULT, I will not attempt to aid them achieve what is detested and OPPOSED to by ALL Anarchists. Egotistical? Fuck no, I wouldn't be an Anarchist-Commie if I were so, I would have been an Individualist or a Cappie.

If Israel were to control Palestine, through external and international aid from the strongest countries it will be able to supply food, water, electricity, and a better standard of living as opposed to having a Palestinian state which cannot fend for itself or supply most of the these basic things as is the Lebanese state. Seeing as this will not be the future and it will probably lead to the exodus of the Palestinian people and the eviction of the Palestinian people then I retract my statement. I was giving an example more than what the actual real result will be, stating that if the Israeli government were to directly control Palestine without any atrocious crimes and evictions then food, water, and electricity will hopefully be supplied, to argue against this would be stupid unless more involvement takes place than what I claim.

Oh my, you clearly have not heard of Iran or Syria have you? Armaments are being shipped to them and most if not all of the Arab world are against Israel and are advocating support and emancipation and the extermination of Israel. It would be simple to attempt to start a revolution and an attack on the Israelis. The Palestinians HAVE WEAPONS, do you not get that? They have attempted to form a government already headed by Hamas as can be seen.
It is argued that Hamas is the problem, that its attacks are resulting in retaliation by the Israelis, some even claim that if Hamas is separated from the government that the conflict will end with agreements on borders. Stop turning Palestine into a defenseless populace of sheep, they are able to defend themselves but it is the attacks and atrocities done by both sides (Hamas and Israel) that is affecting the populace as a whole. It is not only one side that is resulting in the deaths of thousands. Two sides are fighting and the populace is in the middle, Hamas being the popular choice chosen by the Palestinian people is killing them. Get it into your thick skull already.

Yet another awesome argument from Ungovernable.

They have nothing? That is because THEY ARE IN A WAR. How can the Palestinians supply food, water, and jobs when they are at war and besieged by damned blood reavers? If it comes back to me, as I said, I'd prefer living in America rather than in Lebanon.

"You pretend to be an anarchist fighting against all countries and all borders but you make a distinction between palestinians and americans."
....
BWAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHA
Because I called the American people "American" and the Palestinian people "Palestinian" I am not an Anarchist and a hypocrite. And he says I'm hilarious.

"THE WORKING CLASS HAVE NO COUNTRY. We are ALL supposed to be brothers, as an anarchist you should understand that. It's not because they are from a different country that they are not our brothers. All people fighting against oppression are supposed to be our brothers, especially if you pretend to be against nations. You are really contradictory."
What the fuck? Did I say they are not their brothers? I said "...this cannot be found in any non-Palestinians who cry support for their "brothers"" brothers being in quotation since they are not literally born and bred as brothers, but brothers in the sense that they are COMRADES. Wow, I have to give it to ya, you have one fucked up way of interpreting things.

Right, as you wish, you call me selfish yet I am not. Elitist I can agree with it. Sectarian yes I suppose it is fitting if it comes to revolutions.

No, protests are not revolutions, if there is a protest against X changes in the government or an anti-government rally I would join. But I will not fight in a war that will only result in what I wish to abolish, no, I will attempt to change and enlighten the people and attempt to achieve an Anarchist society rather than a state that will oppress generations to come and will harbor and harness the very same people that will be the first to fight and kill us in an Anarchist revolution.

No, you are free to do so, did I ever say you are not allowed to? If expressing my own opinion is that bothering you, add me to your Foe list, you'll not be able to read my posts.
1- Answered that.
2- Answered that.
3- Answered that.
4- In confusion about this after reading Jack's post on Anti-Unionism and Anti-Syndicalism, cannot form my opinion on this at the moment.
5- Same as above.
6- Answered that: Enlighten them instead of fighting with them and supporting their absolutely wrong cause.
7- That is what needs to be had, a protest with Anarchists fighting for ANARCHY not some other petty cause that is not only counter-revolutionary, but also counter-productive.

Lazy, selfish, egoist, elitist, sectarian. Hm, you do love to resort to personal attacks rather than arguments, that is what I have realized from this debate of ours. I do not want anyone to be like me, I want people to question themselves daily and at every moment, criticism is what is needed. Now you may not want to reply back, it does not matter really since what you have given me is personal attacks rather than actual arguments, but nevertheless you could always reply and we can always continue debating if need be.

A nuclear holocaust is not what I want nor what is needed, there needs to be enlightenment and knowledge spread to the people instead of advocating whatever cause and goals they uphold just because they are being oppressed. A constantly held dictatorship or a system of constant war is worse, yes that is apparent, and from this "worse" comes the anger of the populace. This anger will lead to a revolution, happiness will not lead to a revolution, it is when the people are fed up and want an alternative. If the people are happy in a democracy and do not realize the atrocities they are being held in front of, they will not be able to perform an actual revolution but will result in hindering any forthcoming revolution in the hopes of passing a few bills and reforms.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Israeli bullshit.

Please do not even fucking MENTION the PLO. Fucking group of wankers that deserve utterly no respect. They had killed and executed hundreds of Communists and wanted to turn Lebanon into another front to fight Israel during the Lebanese Civil War. They want to coexist with Christians and Jews? BAHAHAHAHHA, right and I'm a walking tree. Lebanese Civil War: Conflict with the Lebanese Communist Party, conflict with the Chrsitian based Lebanese Forces, conflict with Amal/Hamas/Hizbollah and basically everyone, and even they had wars with the Palestinian refugees over here. They had invaded Christian towns and cities, butchered women and kids alike and now you want me to accept that the PLO wants coexistence? I am not even a Christian and I am saying this, they do not want coexistence. They had slaughtered all who stood against them be it Communists or otherwise. They had at first supplied the Communist party with weapons as well as the USSR and Syria but that later changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_civil_war

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

@ Random Person:

yes, the oppression will lead to hatred and thus to a revolution? also it leads to -oppression- of the people, possible killings of system-foes and the suppression of a revolutionary movement. in a TOLERANT society you have the chance to do a slower, but peaceful revolution by creating acceptance and understanding in the peoples minds...
maybe i'm too idealistic, but i would prefer a non-armed struggle over an armed struggle if the latter is avoidable.

also, you don't need to help/support the islamic part (as well as you shouldn't support nationalist parts and so on...) of the movement, but the people. also you have the chance to draw people to your side if hey realize that your is maybe the better one...

@ general:

i would take part in this discussion about palestine/israel too, but i'm sick of the topic, had a recent discussion about it in another forum. so, keep discussing, but PLEASE keep it at discussion, without insults or suppressing opinions. neither of you, please...

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

On a quick first glance I would support another persons view on the PLO - ok, maybe they still deserve a little respect for this or that aspect - but for me they proved more than necessary their general failure and disability to liberate the palestinians.
Part of my "interesting life" was my time with the PFLP in Jordan - they still are the "progressive" branch of the PLO, they overcame the panarabism still imminent to the main organisation at the end of the 60's and are - after some questionable changes - still somehow marxist/leninist orientated, at least on the paper.
I don't support their attitude anymore like I did in the past, especially during the "interesting" time.
I know that "we" (when I was with the PFLP) lost some comrades during the infighting between the more traditional parts of the PLO and the PFLP - and I can only guess that the differences between our group and the main organisation was the main reason for the tolerance of the jordan state that allowed the PFLP to stay in Jordan after the Black September in 1970 - when the PLO attempted to take over Amman and the (maybe) the state in general - but was finally forced to retreat to Lebanon after Iraque and syrian support broke up and Amman kept the upper hand. It was very difficult to talk about this part of the struggle with our advisors and instructors - after more than 15 years and despite the very special position the PFLP held all the time. Our "marxism/leninism" wasn't that popular with the other organisations of the PLO during necessary contacts we had with them - and have to remind everyone that most of my comrades then were illiterate soldiers serving mainly to earn a living for their families - in other words: "our" political orientation was not that serious at all.

Yes, the PFLP trained hundreds of europeans and americans like me, most famous was the support the german RAF got from the PFLP in the early seventies in Jordan and later in Yemen. Guess I have to find a english translation of an interview with the only survivor of the "landshut" hijacking - Souhaila Sami Andrawes Sayeh - where she gives a report about her involvement in the commando action and her version of the motivation for the commando: "Armed" propaganda for the PFLP as the main reason... somehow ending the mythos of international solidarity...
AND: The PFLP trained german neo nazis too - infamous example: the wehrsportgruppe hoffman, regarded by the left in germany as responsible for the worst act of terrorism that ever happened on german soil - the "oktoberfest-attentat" 1980 in munich, 13 people died and more than 200 were wounded.
Evidence that hoffmans heap of scum had contact and support with/of the clandestine NATO-strategy program "gladio" too was never seriously investigated, thanks to the involvement of secret services, but I think it's strong enough to leave a more than bad feeling in people like me - who served under the very same "flag".
During my time in Jordan my antifascist attitude was more than difficult for my "anti-semitic" comrades unable to understand what was wrong about killing "jews" in the holocaust. I experienced the very same phenomenom in Egypt - anti-british resentments mixed with anti-semitism - and this strange german refusing all the time to agree with the necessity to drive "the jews" into the sea and glad to be conquered by the british in europe in WW II... I don't regard them as nazis or fascists - it's just their lack of education and vision for the greater picture.
Antisemitism and pan-arabic nationalism are aspects of the struggle I can't accept or even tolerate within the PLO - and my position was the PFLP's reason for asking me to leave at the end. And that was after I "learned" to tolerate the lack of determination and true will to fight and the convenience of office and career in a "professional" resistance organisation. Mind me comparing the role of the PLO with the bolshevik party before and during the october revolution? I'm not sure about that, but the smell seemed very similiar...

I'm still trying to find some kind of position in the question if an "interim" democratic state is necessary or not in the struggle in north africa and the near/middle east.
In principles I go along with random person - each state is illegitim - especially for us anarchists -
BUT: A democratic state providing education, a minimum of social and economic security may be necessary to enable people to become radicalized and find their own way of liberation. Right now I guess it's more realistic to support the interim "solution" and after that every group, organisation or individual struggling for the final aim - the abolisment of the state everywhere.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Right, PFLP is absolutely unacceptable - and looking back I was very stupid to join and stay with them for some time - personally I think I can nominate myself now for the most questionable past award 2011 in competition to other ex-boneheads, ex-soldiers... guess I am the worst of all.
(and thanks to jack negativity - this line about the award was really epic!)

I wouldn't call them (PFPL) dumb - because it's only the lack of education and knowledge and the ignorance of their leaders that keeps them illiterate and ignorant to the big picture - they are good soldiers maybe, they were good comrades to me then - but they are absolutely no revolutionaries.

I still put their anti-semitism into "" - they are no nazis or fascists - they just lack the big picture and the direct confrontation with the nazi-like acting israeli army drives them into cheap propaganda statements all the time while they are ethnically "semites" themselves.
But every fraction withhin the established resistance organisations has innocent blood on their hands, PlO raided christian villages, christian Lebanese phalangists raided the palestinian refugee camps in Beirut - Sabra and Shatila - under the watchful eyes of the israeli army... it's an endless chaos of competeting bands of murderers and thugs - on both sides and the majority of the palestinian people are always between the two sides of the front...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Bit of a correction: During the "landshut" hijacking 1977 only the pilot of the lufthansa jet was shot:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_181

According to Souhaila Sami Andrawes Sayeh, Akache/Captain Mahmoud was the only member of the commando who had actual military experience and training - a german wikipedia shard about him states:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zohair_Youssif_Akache

During the five days lasting action Akache proved to be a brutal and unpredictable/volatile kidnapper, feared by the hostages firstly because of his choleric outbursts of rage, ending more than often in violence, humiliation and threats of murder. on 16th of october he murdered the captain of the landshut, Jürgen Schumann in Aden (Yemen).

Souhaila Sami Andrawes Sayeh stated that most of the aggressive treatment of the hostages was resulting from the the unexperienced anxiety of the commando members facing the great number of hostages - and after the false "agreement" between the officials and the commando the hostile situation relaxed that much that the later attack of the german anti-terror squads completely surprised the commando - only one of the hostages was wounded by a frag grenade shrapnell - but three of the four hijackers were killed by the germans.

I don't know enough about the actual situation there - but some of our neighbors here are exiles from southern Libanon still blaming the muslim extremists for threatening even "secular" people with christian or palestinian background to leave - or else...
When I was with the PFLP we lost some comrades on missions to contact other PLO-groups and there were long discussions about the reasons for their "vanishing" - after that it became quite unpopular to make progressive statements in public and our leaders tried to send "unobtrusive" delegates to meetings and negotiations with other groups. Our marxist/leninist position wasn't "that" popular outside our group, even while it was already watered down, the majority just doesn't cared about it anyways or simply knew nothing about it because of the lack of education.

Another aspect to consider might be, that the western point of view about what's "left"/what's not is fundamentally different to the eastern view - with my limited experience I would say that the "left" in the near/middle east is more like the european left before WW I - there is still a lot of nationalism, national emnity and need for "honour" and revenge for almost forgotten crimes and atrocities committed a long time ago...
It's hard to understand for us, especially because of the language problem, but my personal difficulties to explain my antifascist views to my fellow comrades are a good example for this phenomen. I was going along well with everyone there just by accepting the rules and traditions of the culture that hosted me - but when it came to ideological or theoretical points of view - I was like an alien to them and points like internationalism or simple equality of every human being were far beyond their vision.
I think it's an obvious fact that there is no "left" wing in the resistance movement in Palestine - and this absence is kinda proof that another person isn't completely wrong - again please critisize me if I am...

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Sigh... What more can I say?

More ad hominem, replying to this mess of an arguemnt would result in a massive shit fight. That is true, if I LIVED in France I would fight because I am able to. If I lived in Mexico, I couldn't do anything and offering "support" to the Allies or French would mean offering support to De Gaulle. Now, either get some arguments done or stop attempting to throw insults and "look at him" arguments.

Did I not retract that statement since I saw the errors that would result after the complete occupation of Palestine which would turn into Israeli land? Of fucking course not, you're too much of an ignorant idiot to even care to read any of that post. But since you will not cease to complain of this, I will reopen and speak of this again:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 00,00.html

and: http://bigpeace.com/pschweizer/2011/01/ ... vereignty/

(Simply used google and got these by accident)

This dude is fucking hilarious, not only does he resort to ad hominem attacks but also he catches statements by the tail. I would offer my actual SUPPORT BY BEING THERE AND FIGHTING WITH THEM, NOT WAVING GOD DAMNED FLAGS AND DOING FUCK ALL. The anger that would be boiling from the Nazis would allow for an actual revolution if done correctly.

Wow, I mean... What the fuck is this guy onto? He basically wrongly caught on a few points out of a whole thread of arguments and insists on them. I DID NOT SAY FIGHTING AGAINST A WAR IS COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY if it were literal fighting and NOT WAVING FLAGS IN FRONT OF EMBASSIES AND DOING FUCK ALL. Omfg. Oh? Do you expect me to idolize or adhere to every point and every action Kropotkin made? Oh, just because I like Crass for example must I also be a Pacifist? Fuck no.

That is why they need to be "awoken" and correctly lead by an actual party/organization with ACTUAL LONG-TERM GOALS.

I'd like to meet your grandmother then. But seriously dude, do I have to repeat it for the fucking hundredth time? I RETRACTED MY STATEMENT. Wow, I'm arguing with a complete fool.

Is your whole post made out of strawmen and ad hominem? The Rwanda GENOCIDE is a fucking crime against humanity with one side being a defenceless VICTIM. Palestine and Israel are both performing CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, both of them advocate goals WHICH ARE THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE WANT. There's no fucking genocide nor massacre, both countries are attacking each other and are in a full-out fuckign total war. If Palestine had not and is not fighting and being massacred then THAT IS A FUCKING GENOCIDE. Speaking of genocide, the Palestinians are killing Israelis and Jews just because they are so and just because their country did X and Y to them, shall you then condemn their actions? You will reply that the Palestinians do no such thing, my reply would be to use google or go there yourself or possibly visit ANY PALESTINIAN REFUGEE CAMP and proclaim that you are Zionist/Jewish/Israeli proudly. You would be hanged from a fucking pole.

Oh, wow, this dude has never ever heard the opinion of ANY Arab about Israel. Undeniable fact? That declaration came from fucking ISRAEL, everyone I know, every single person I have talked to of Israel wants it to be abolished. I am not speaking of race here, I am speaking of mutual detestation of a "parasitic" state. People are bred to hate Israel, take a look at the schools for example, they never mention "Israel" with any positive connotation. "Israel" is replaced with the word Sohyoun, even in the media and even they have gone to an extent as to avoid/omit the word Israel in the Bible and replace it with Palestine. No, I do not care about the damned Bible and what they do alter with it, nor do I care about the general opinion of the Lebanese and Arabs. Yes, 90% or more of the Arabs think that Israel needs to be abolished. You will not believe me and think that I'm an Anti-Arab Arab, funny. "While it is well-known that many Muslim schools in Arab and Islamic countries indoctrinate students with hatred of Jews and Israel..."

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1283186/posts

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1240.cfm

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_the_inter ... s_policies

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... /mf15.html

Links may contain other material, sources may be questionable, if so go google yourself.

What the fuck? Idiocy at its best. Here you go, by simply using google:

http://praguemonitor.com/2011/01/06/exh ... en-germans

http://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffr ... -nad-labem

MANY, MANY more can be found but I do not have the time or patience to look for such things myself, if you need to find more USE GOOGLE.

Same as above, you are a complete fool. The reason why humanitarian aid and such are restricted is BECAUSE THEY ARE IN A FUCKING WAR. Should the war end and Palestine be annexed by Israel CONDITIONS WILL IMPROVE* AND THE SIEGE WILL BE LIFTED. This needs no fucking genius to realize that with a better economy and better backing you can provide better services to the people that live under your rule. I cannot even think of how much you lack logic saying that.

*Will improve from the current conditions and predictably better than under a struggling Palestinian state.

Now I absolutely offer my condolences and pity to the Palestinians and I can arguably claim that I "support" their freedom. I do support their freedom (I know) but it is what they will do AFTER achieving their freedom that is making me hesitate and criticize them. A war is an abomination, but we cannot end wars, we never will.

"IN THE WHOLE HISTORY AN OCCUPATION ARMY NEVER HELPED THE PEOPLE"
HAHAHHAHA. Right. Yes, of course. Do not like the sources? Too bad.
Website for your liking: http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/05/iraq-germany/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_aid_to_Iraq
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... tion_N.htm

And that's only from Iraq.

I mentioned the Lebanese Civil War because you mentioned THE PLO. Wow, this dude is fucking hilarious, more ad hominem and strawmen please. Oh and yes, Lebanese-Egyptian by origin and currently live in Lebanon, my uncle was killed fighting the PLO and Lebanese Army, kinda personal too.

Now I'm thinking I need to think this over, whether I should be able to support the Palestinians to achieve their freedom when they want to form a state and the atrocious consequences of the very personal war ending. I do offer my support for the people against what is not just: The occupation, do not get me wrong on that, but I cannot get myself to support their goals and their war that will lead to their demise. I dunno, the politics of the Middle-East are too fucked up, I tend to question myself and contradict myself on many points as I have realized. Guess it must be as it is then. Yes, please do forgive my lack of thought into the matter, but my opinion on it is gradually forming and I will need more time to allow it to form. It matters little really should I have shown to opposite points, people change insofar that you can consider my latest replies to be the latest of my opinion.

... Can I even reply to this without shitting a brick out of my mouth? I doubt it and as so, I request that you either use google from now on, speak to Arabs (especially exiled), check out the Communist Part of Lebanon, check out the Lebanese Civil War, check out the things for yourself. They can become temporary allies during times of need but after that they will become mortal enemies partly due to religion, politics, and the future of the country.

@Vassily

Damour massacre anyone? I say it again, the politics of the Middle-East is fucked up beyond all recognition. I do not know how this has happened, I need to think more about it. To be anti-Western would have to be pro-Irani/Syrian, to be anti-Irani/Syiran you are directly related to pro-Western countries. It's a never ending cycle. If you want to support the Lebanese Forces who had protected certain parts of the country against PLO attacks and encroachment then you would be defending Christianity and the Western countries. Religion is what fucked it all up I am thinking.

Totally in agreement. The Left is either not found or so fucked up that it is unrecognizable. To think that the Communist Part of Lebanon has entered religion into it is fucking ridiculous, even when most of them uphold Marxist-Leninist ideologies. Us Anarchists over here criticize the Communist Party on a constant basis, more so I do criticize them of their main focus on abolishing Israel rather than achieving an alternate form of system, a Leftist system that will aid us once and for all. Their actions were and are always against Israel and not against the state or attempting to take power from the corrupt state. They even side with the Lebanese media. Pathetic.

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

@ Random Person:

you WON'T believe how hard it is to explain this to some german antifa(schists)...
it's true for the moment, but you won't believe it.... this question made me stop discussing about the entire topic...

slowly i get your points, I think...

so you don't want to support people by 'talking' about the problem, but by direct action? if this is the case, you've got my support...

although you can't support every struggle physically....
sometimes a sign of understanding and support can help more than a thrown rock.
solidarity gives hope to people. it cannot be underestimated.

nevertheless, direct action is the better solution, most people are talking way too much, while they could do something productive, positive, useful by some physical activity...

 

Re: Riots in Cairo

Try to explain it to the average XXX-sympathysant/activist in situ and you will learn what hardness really is...
(and XXX stands for each and every of the established organisations involved and contributing to the chaos)
I think besides the purely religious madness in play we may discuss the problem of the internal dynamics of authoritarian armed or militant struggle too, it's tendency to "privatize" and loose all relation to the cause of the people for which it once was started... bit off topic again, but I think it's an important aspect too.

and this one...

...made the whole topic really interesting and quite rewarding - so thanks everyone - I think we all have to learn quite a bit...
Personally I feel the need to say that I was never involved in a "hot" offensive/aggressive commando of any kind, I spend lots of time learning and training with a "mixed" squad, not only weapon technics and tactical stuff, but medicals too, enabling me to assist the medical care for wounded or ill comrades and fugitives. I helped with clearing work after israeli air and artillery bombardments, survived two air raids with very light wounds from shrapnells at the last one and volunteered afterwards for the understaffed and underequipped air surveillance teams at the border to israel. Lacking any means of surface to air weapons we only gave radio warnings when israeli planes came into view - I guess the palestinians didn't trust the europeans very far - so we were never even asked to contribute to any "hot" commando actions.
And after endless discussions about the "jewish" matter and the question at which point nationalism becomes counter-revolutionary, I and many others from europe were simply asked to leave by the advisor staff - and we did leave after we agreed that our presence there didn't make sense anymore.

So I hope we can continue to discuss how to support and whom - I think most of us aren't able to contribute in physical presence in palestine or north africa, but I feel the need now to do more than just talking and any suggestion to do something productive, positive and useful is welcomed.