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on calling cops pigs

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by howgodskill, Oct 28, 2010.

  1. Rabbit

    Rabbit Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 26, 2009
     
    Sorry, this just seems like a joke. You support the rights of other people because they're people too. Animals are not, thus they come second.
     
  2. howgodskill

    howgodskill Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    i've been doing vegan activism for 8 years and have never encountered any violence except from those employed in the industry relying exploitation itself. of course, no-one wants to be called a speciesist, just as most people don't want to be confronted with being racist, sexist,... we've been indoctrinated to think a certain way, from cradle to grave, which is hard to escape. myself, i thought in a speciesist way for 21 years. glad someone opened my eyes.

    and i support the rights of all sentient being, because they ALL have an intrinsic interest in life. just as i don't see any difference in equality between me and individuals with different skin color, gender or age, i don't consider other species as inferior. that individual being human or not, is no justification for discrimination in my eyes. it's going against anthropocentrism.
     
  3. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 21, 2010
     
    No. Its not true. Its not "far more impotant". Animals are alive, and they deserve to be free, as we do. And yeah, they cant speak, but we should be like "brothers" to them, and speak in their name. Its far worse what are they doing to animals, then to men in prison, or something like that. And this sound selfish, like only thing you care about is our freedom. ffs, we all live on this planet, and we should all live in a harmony with nature, as for animals as for people. Sorry, I cant agree with you on this one.
     
  4. THEREDMENACE

    THEREDMENACE Active Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    So the entire world turns vegan. Where do you propose we grow our soy beans?

    I know they are hacking and slashing rain forests to grow the shit as we speak, thereby destroying habitats and killing animals. I don't like the idea that I'm murdering animals -- but I have to. It's survival.
     
  5. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    I couldn't give a fuck if someone called me a speciesist, its fucking daft politics.

    this:
    but whatever, you keep fighting the good fight howgodskill, helping those poor pigs with decimated self-esteem from being compared to police.
    :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

    get fucking real.
     
  6. howgodskill

    howgodskill Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    i'm sorry to sound harsh, but have you actually EVER read anything on the topic or had a decent conversation with someone who knows anything about it? they mainly grow soy to feed cattle in US and even more so in europe. yes, you don't only eat cow, you eat the world at the same time. (EDIT: look up the amount of grain and water fed to animals used for the meat-industry, you'll be shocked.)
    and survival? didn't know they had internet connections in the deepest, darkest parts of the tropical jungle where you can't find sufficient plant-based food. you don't survive, because you can choose what you eat. as a comparison: if i were lost in that jungle and did indeed not find any other food but another animal, then there is an equilibrium: my interest in life versus the animal's interest in life. that is survival. never in my life have i -nor have you, i reckon- found myself in a situation where i had to survive. you don't have to kill animals; you don't, you let others do it for you and most probably pay for it as well. all of us can actually choose to be a vegan, right here and now; it is still healthier (and for human animals far more natural) and ethically acceptable.

    before pulling whatever false arguments out of thin air and throwing 'em online, get your information sorted. i'll refrain from responding to unthoughtful posts such as the one above because it just doesn't add to constructive communications - which i was aiming at in the first place.

    in my eyes anarchy stands for the rejection of domination, control and exploitation. any animal derived product comes exactly from those. oh, wait... "anarcho-nihilists"?

    interesting reading material: "making a killing: the political economy of animal rights", bob torres, http://www.akpress.org
     
  7. THEREDMENACE

    THEREDMENACE Active Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    Do you think before you type? Just wondering.

    That's true, yes. We can choose to be vegan. And we'll still be slashing and burning rain forests and destroying natural habitats to reach subsistence much like we are now with animals. There isn't some place devoid of mass where infinite space is achievable and all of our food is grown. I'm not saying eating meat is good or bad, I'm saying we're overpopulated and no matter what we choose to consume it will be at the Earth's detriment. I know you may not enjoy thinking that, but my prerogative is not to consider if you feel uncomfortable or not with your fragile framework. I actually applaud that you're vegan, I think it's an honourable position to take; but the self-righteousness has got to go before I would even consider it.
     
  8. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    true as

    nah, the central premise of this thread doesn't add to constructive communications.
     
  9. THEREDMENACE

    THEREDMENACE Active Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    I'm talking on a global scale; i.e. if ALL of mankind suddenly has an epiphany and turns vegan. Instead of slashing and burning rain forests for animal feed we'll just be slashing and burning the rain forest for direct consumption.
     
  10. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 21, 2010
     
    NO! you dont see the point. You eat 7 times more proteins then you would have to eat, just becouse meat. And thats not problem, humans are not made to eat everything. They dont have teeth like other meat-eating animals (i dont know how are they called on english). Anyway, in anarcho-socitety it would be diffrent, we wouldnt treat animals like this, and you could chose, if you want or not. Most people would chose not eating animals probably, but if you "like it" and think you need to eat meat - then you will be able to. But, you will feel sorry for them, i guarantee. We well be like friends, the best ones. No ones forcing you - "stop eating meat" and if someone is, fuck him too. Vegeterians/vegans should show how we should treat animals, should teach all of us how are they threated in medical experiments, in mcdonalds, for profit - and they are not here to force you not to eat meat.
    Animal Liberation is Human Liberation :anarchism:
     
  11. THEREDMENACE

    THEREDMENACE Active Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    There's a choice right now, Bakica. And most people choose to eat animals.
     
  12. Bakica

    Bakica Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Feb 21, 2010
     
    Becouse there are no vegan activist, at least not that many, that could make a difference. I, myself, im not activist, i am made fun of for being a vegeterian. Well, i dont give a fuck. Eating someones life is cruel. If you cant understand that, then you have a problem. If you eat animal, you should know what are you doing and feel sorry. At least thats my opinion, im very emotional when it comes to animals, and hate beating animals and treating them like toys and food. I get angry easly. I see your point, but you should also see mine.
     
  13. THEREDMENACE

    THEREDMENACE Active Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    I do see your point. I have no qualms with vegetarians.
     
  14. howgodskill

    howgodskill Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    by considering ourselves to be anarchist and trying hard not to partake in the abusive capitalist system you oppose, will you change the world? it starts with individuals, who at their turn educate others. isn't that why we're here, or is that too idealist/naive? the world won't turn vegan overnight, but is no excuse to stop us from trying.

    once again, look up the amount of grain consumed by animals raised for consumption. veganism is better for the planet. take away that cow as in-between, and instead of 1 kilo of meat you'll get about 10 kilo's of grain. going vegan means consuming less. but that is not even my point: i was talking about animals as individuals in the first place. i am not a conservationist, because i think on an individual level. an example: the holocaust is not less horrifying because there are people who survived and the whole population hasn't been wiped out. it is horrifying for every individual who had to go through that holocaust. anti-speciesism should be one aspect of the fight for equality and freedom for all. how can the flavor of meat justify the exploitation of another sentient being?

    constructive question: are we indoctrinated to think of other animals as inferior beings? open any children's book on animals, and you'll see that every species gets a function to benefit humans: the cow for milk, the chicken for eggs, the pig for bacon. cats and dogs are considered "pets" (euphemism for enslaved animals) in our society, but food in many others. it's nothing more than a cultural and traditional aspect of society. does anyone consider bullfights as acceptable? by most it is not, because we inflict unnecessary suffering (for entertainment); however the cow, the same species, can without further doubt be tortured and murdered for a product we do not need (again entertainment: the flavor of meat, thus again unnecessary).


    when i started this topic, i was hoping to indeed open some eyes to the indoctrination we receive. maybe the premise language wasn't the wisest decision, but i think it does show the underlying cultural values of speciesism.
     
  15. THEREDMENACE

    THEREDMENACE Active Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    Yes and no. We obviously came up with the premise ourselves when we started herding and breeding them. However it is a tradition that has transcended generations.

    Like I said, it's an honourable stand to make... I just don't see how it's causally related to fixing the world. Most vegan anarchists run on the premise that with animal liberation comes absolute freedom and victory. I do not see this.
     
  16. butcher

    butcher Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    when you can draw a correlation between calling police pigs and, say, intensive farming practises, then maybe I'll listen.
     
  17. howgodskill

    howgodskill Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    we exploit non-human animals because of speciesism: regarding them as inferior. we refer to other human beings in a pejorative manner all too often by comparing them to non-human animals who are, in a speciesist view, inferior.

    negative aspects attributed to certain animals re-enforce that thinking: "it's only a pig" > "cops are pigs". we hereby -often unwillingly- re-enforce the inferiority of pigs. i can't put this in a simpler way. it might seem far-fetched, but once you agree on speciesism as an unacceptable discrimination, it makes perfect sense. you don't harm a pig directly, but indirectly you confirm the indoctrination. the reason for calling someone a pig, and the actual enslavement of the animal, is the same...


    being anti-speciesist equals advocating the abolition of slavery, not reforming it. in my opinion it is not more acceptable enslaving animals in an "ecological farm" than in a heavy industrialised farm.
     
  18. Pankucnik

    Pankucnik Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Jun 4, 2010
     
    I always considered veganism and vegetarianism as a bit touchy subject. I must point out that I am against any unnecessary killing (to the point where I feel very sorry even when I accidentally kill a bug) But to claim that humans shouldn't eat animals is stupid in many ways. First thing (and I am sure you hear this a lot) is that humans are natural carnivores. It's natural to eat other animals. Other animals do it too, so why shouldn't we? Second thing (and I don't see this brought up very often) is that it's difficult to draw a line. Why is it ok to kill parasitic worms and bacterias, but its wrong to kill other animals? Why is it ok to kill a hundred year old tree (or few months old stalk of wheat), but wrong to kill a pig? We need to kill something in order to survive, and i believe it's just as wrong to kill a tree as it is to kill an animal. And I feel just as sorry when I see one die. So I am not against eating meat, cos then I would be against eating plants, and the I would die. However, I am horrified by the treatment animals get, and I believe it is necessary to stop cruelty to animals. I treat animals I encounter as nice as I can (despite being attacked by dogs few times), and I always make sure I don't throw away any meat (or as little as possible). As for the name calling... I doubt it is important issue.
     
  19. howgodskill

    howgodskill Member Forum Member


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    Oct 27, 2010
     
    as said by another veg*an above: no it's not. false information from your part. we are herbivores that can live as omnivores. talk to any biologist, or just read any book that is not written in the interest of the "animal agriculture industry". I've been vegan for over 8 years and am far healthier than when i ate animal products, as well than most people of my age.

    because we can make the choice. we don't need to use any animal product. we're the only animal that chooses to consume a diet that is not natural (we're as well the only animal that drinks milk from another species, or that heats up food, or that eats in a non-hygienic way...).

    consider sentience (the ability to feel > the interest in his/her own life). you really don't see a difference between cats, dogs, pigs, humans and cows on one side, and plants and bacteria on the other? let's leave parasites that threaten our personal health out of the question for a bit. don't get me wrong, i heavily support the earth liberation philosophy -not for anthropocentric reasons- and do of course not agree with destroying any tree. but respecting nature goes hand in hand with respecting sentient life.

    whether you throw away meat or not, makes -excusez le mot- fuck all difference for the animal that was tortured and murdered because of it. i am horrified not just by the treatment (the "how" of animal exploitation), but the reason ("why") for our participation in their slavery.


    let me make a bold statement: most of us (even amongst us anarchists) still cling to certain luxuries such as the flavor of animal flesh, and are willing to make a killing for it. no matter how many false arguments you post here, it does not make this any less true. be fucking consequent.
     
  20. seitan

    seitan Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 7, 2009
     
    by calling cops pigs you are implying that pigs are bad, as cops are bad (in this case).
    implying animals are bad is dumb.
     
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