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'77 punk

Discussion in 'Music, punk scene & subcultures' started by punkdude, Sep 3, 2009.

  1. NGNM85

    NGNM85 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    Most definitely, although Crass would loathe to admit it.

    Actually, the Pistols couldn't find a major label willing to carry them (They kept being dropped for being too controversial.) until Virgin, then the band broke up. As for the Clash, as mentioned they forfeited an enormous amount of money, keeping themselves in perpetual debt for years to keep the album prices low, hardly rock star behavior.

    This is a commonly repeated misconception. Steve Jones and Paul Cook were aspiring to form a band with a friend Wally Nightingale, and approached McLaren to manage them. McLaren was vaguely interested but did express that the bands' present lineup with Jones as a frontman wasn't working, and that it might be better without Wally, who was sacked and Steve decided to play guitar. Glen, the bassist and most musically capable of the group who worked the register was recruited by the band. A semi-regular customer was a colorful character named John Lydon. John Lydon had an extremely unusual fashion sense, wearing tattered, mismatched clothes, a famous pink floyd shirt with "I Hate" scrawled on it, and dying his hair green, which in pre-punk London, made him a fucking alien. Lydon was approached to audition, which he did, singing Alice Cooper's "Eighteen", he was off-key but his delivery was passionate and crazy enough where they thought he'd be a good frontman. McLaren has spent decades constructing the myth that he was some brilliant svengali, but the truth is he contributed very little to the Sex Pistol;s beyond a practice space, and he robbed them blind, ultimately resulting in a lawsuit, which he lost. Lydon was already wearing what would become the archetypal punk "look" before the band even existed, and McLaren had absolutely no input whatsoever on the music, so the idea that the Pistols were manufactured is really the delusion of a self-promoting con man. I highly recommend Jon Savage's "England's Dreaming: Anarchy, Sex Pistols, Punk Rock and Beyond", at 656 pages it is THE definitive book on punk rock, focusing on the pistools but covering punk from the Motor City Five to Nirvana, with an encyclopediac discography. (Although it would be better to supplement this with Legs McNeil's "Please Kill Me', and "We Got the Neutron Bomb.")

    Honestly, I think the Pistols get a bad rap, and not just because they are one of my two favorite bands of all time. No, the Pistols are not Anarchists, but if you read the interviews they never claimed to be, it had more to do with the deteriorating social condition in England in the 70's. The Pistols' music while containing a few political songs, would seem to pale compared to the Clash's musical revolutionary manifesto. However, while more crudely articulated, I argue the Pistols were just as revolutionary. Whereas the Clash took a more intellectualized, nuanced approach, the Pistols came from more of a personal-is-political perspective. It's like Brando in "The Wild One": "What are you kids rebelling against?! ...What have you got?" I mean, if you listen to "Pretty Vacant", "God Save..", "Anarchy", or "Holidays in the Sun", the politics are pretty clear. Let's also not forget the impact of the Sex Pistols, not only were they the Robert Johnson's of punk rock, they created very genuine political turmoil. Members of the British hose of commons debated trying the band for treason, a death penalty offense. (They ultimately decided against it.) When "God Save the Queen" reached number one in the UK, which is pretty impressive with limited distribution and zero radio or tv support, it was wiped of the billboard charts in England by order of the British government, that week there was no No. 1. John Lydon also nearly had an eye gouged out by a broken bottle, and still walks with a limp from having a machete stuck in his leg by nationalists who didn't appreciate his music. If you get a reaction like that, you're doing something very wrong, or something very right. Credit where credit's due, thats' all.
     
  2. ghost in the void

    ghost in the void Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    CRASS aren't loathe to admit it, it's CRASS who i got that information from!

    i wrote that the PISTOLS are "more like" an invented boy band, i didn't say they were one. i said it merely because they're such postcard punks in the way they're marketed (as in now, not refering to their manager). as for maclaren and his pretention, you're right, but it's not his "work" with the PISTOLS i was refering to as such.

    i have no idea why the SEX PISTOLS are so often mentioned as punk forefathers. the culture existed long before them.
     
  3. NGNM85

    NGNM85 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Crass have made a number of disparaging, holier-than-thou statements about the early punk rock scene.

    Post 1996, yeah, I'd say theres' an argument there, but then again they're so huge now, they're a part of rock 'n roll history, when a band gets that big it changes things. I had my doubts about the Country Life butter ads, but after all that incredible music I'll let it slide. I just want to see them live, again.

    The Sex Pistols did not invent punk, that came from America, thats' true. Thats' kinda why I said they were the Robert Johnson's of punk rock, they didn't invent it, but they codified it. Punk rock up to that point was a collection of diverse musical acts but with little cohesion, what "Punk" actually meant was up for grabs. After the release of "Anarchy.." there was not only an international community, but there was suddenly consensus. Once you heard it you knew what punk was, the debate was over. Thus, they influenced every punk band, and a substantial amount of mainstream bands, afterwards.

    Personally, I love 70's punk. The kind of passion and creativity that went into it are just amazing, these people had style, and it was totally organic, they did it themselves. As much as I love the early American stuff, the Ramones, Velvet Underground, Dead Boys, the Runaways, etc., the British scene is where it's at. It makes me wish I had a time machine; the Sex Pistols, the Clash, The Buzzcocks, The Damned, X-Ray Spex, the Adverts, Stiff Little Fingers, Generation X, Siouxsie, etc., absolutely amazing. Some of my favorite albums come from this short time period. Although, I must say there is a lot of late-seventies American stuff that gets short shrift, amazing bands like the Germs, X, the Weirdos, the Screamers, the Avengers, etc., most of these bands formed in the late 70's and survived for a while afterwards, the Germs ended in '81, I think, but really great stuff that doesn't get enough credit.
     
  4. ghost in the void

    ghost in the void Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    agreed, for the most part, particularly the above comment. the SEX PISTOLS didn't influence fuck all as far as i'm concerned though, in the underground context. overground, they're huge, and overhyped and overrated in my book. still, i can't say i don't enjoy their music, and the way they took pop culture on and spat it back in everyones faces is one of the reasons i like them. much more interesting than the safe as fuck 90s bands like GREEN DAY and THE OFFSPRING.

    the 'PISTOLS have their place, but if you wanna give credit where it's due, then it should go elsewhere. they get enough as it is.
     
  5. Napalm

    Napalm Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 14, 2009
     
    ungovernable guvnor, eh :ecouteurs:

    I believe the term "sellout" would be a sufficient way to address these bands if they ever actually did distance themselves from the industry, rather than just going the fuck along with whatever they did.
    However, you can't deny the fact that if it weren't for ramones, pistols and the clash there would've been no crass, conflict or flux of pink indians (i could go into discussion on the matter of wether these bands are "REAL PUNK" or not based on statements and actions theyve taken, but to be honest i think it would be utterly boring.), and that is my take on '77 punk as well. they were first, broke down the initial barriers, then at a later point punk went underground and became lifestyle rather than temporary rebellion.
    I also beleive that what you claim to be a fact is a matter of opinion, rather than a hard dumb fact, decided by a person ungovernable.
     
  6. ghost in the void

    ghost in the void Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    ROTFLMAO to the last post. what a load of bullshit. punk existed before your greatgreatgreatgreatfuckinggrandmother and that's NOT subjective opinion. do some research, and quit reference to mundane use of so called "information technology" if you seek to do so. it wont be found there. you start calling admin here "gov" and i'll ban your arse pretty fucking quick, and i don't have the intellectual construct of being an anarchist (like most here) to me stop doing so. not that i intend to, but you've been warned.

    no offense, but we're getting flack from quarters we don't need right now, and if you fuck with me right now you're gonna cop the sharp end of the (e)stick. save it for later if you wanna be a smart-arse. i'll join you and laugh at everyone with you.
     
  7. Napalm

    Napalm Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 14, 2009
     
    ehm.. what?
    I thought we were discussing how '77, as a subgenre to punk rock music, not how dissident people apparently existed in the 1500's (considered each grandmother lasts ca. 80 years each)
    The guv part is a kind of "formal dis" because i thinks its utterly silly making statements of whether some music is "real" and other is "false", and how One person is in a position to decide these things for the rest of us while they nickname themselves "ungovernable", and then i tried to put it into perspective, as well as including my own opinion on the matter.
    I don't really understand where you're going with this threatening business, and neither what "flack from quarters you don't need" means, but i'll refrain from calling ungovernable guv if its that serious.


    you said nothing about pulling stuff out of context and laughing at it. -> :lmao:
    this ones on you, ban me all you like mate
     
  8. ghost in the void

    ghost in the void Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    fair call. i was in a shitty mood, and if you read the post i made i didn't have any intention of banning you. i don't really think people should be spouting "this is how it is" crap here either, but i got the shits coz you seemed to want to start picking at someones handle ("ungovernable") when you're not even 10 posts in. undermining others isn't a good foot to walk in on when you've just joined a community. "gov" is slang for "boss" as i'm sure you well know, and using it as reference comes across as a direct attack on the guy's anarchist ethical belief system. i'm all for argument and criticism, but if people start going straight for the jugular it's not really constructive dialogue.

    this was the part i was calling you on. in particular because you failed in this sentence to point out you were refering to punk ROCK rather than punk. i probably got confused because where i come from "77 punk" isn't commonly called a subgenre or anything, it's just a reference to punk that was played in the year 1977.
     
  9. Outlaw_(A)_Punk

    Outlaw_(A)_Punk Member Forum Member


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    Sep 15, 2009
     
    Hmm.. Some guys had to start it. I know this bands only from books, internet, etc. With this informations I would say the pistols are assholes. They didn`t have any vision, an opinion or something. It was just about making trouble, hanging around & making a lot of noise. Sid Vicious was a fuckin' Junkie. Last but not least, a punk band with a manager? What the fuck?
    The Clash were resemble, but they have 1-2 political songs.

    I like listen to the Ramones, it's funny music. Also other 77-Punk Bands, there's one called 'Tight Finks' from Bern they're great. ;)
    Generally the music sounds well but mostly the bands don't have any attitude. So for me it's just good music to listen.
     
  10. Napalm

    Napalm Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 14, 2009
     
    My apologies, I just think provocations is the best way to start conversations, to cut the crap and actually have something to talk about.
    I was, however, in no way attacking his belief system, i was pointing out how a person, clearly inspired by conflict in his choice of user name was dictating shit. I'm sure he's a swell guy, altogether, but people who thinks they've got the "right" definiton of whats what, either if its on music or people.
     
  11. Mike Puke

    Mike Puke Active Member Forum Member


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    Sep 18, 2009
     
    Re the Sex Pistols -

    Ha ha, something very right! They gave a world a right good kick up the arse! More so than any band before or since!
     
  12. NGNM85

    NGNM85 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    What have you read? is this an informed opinion? I don't mean to be a dick and theres' obviously a language barrier but have you really done the homework to make such pronouncements? If you want to have a serious debate, go read Savage's "England's Dreaming", Legs MacNeil's "Please Kill Me" and Marc Spitz's "We Got the Neutron Bomb", then, we'll have a basic framework for debate about punk rock. At the very least you should see "The filth and the Fury" before you pass judgement on the Pistols, without which, incidentally, every band you like wouldn't exist.

    Malcolm McLaren was hardly a manager, more like a parasite. However, many punk bands have had managers, once you get to a certain level of success it's very difficult to do everything on you're own.

    No, the Clash don't have a few political songs, they have political ALBUMS. A short list of Clash political songs off the top of my head; Complete Control, Clampdown, English Civil War, Hate & War, White Riot, Bankrobber, Police and Theives, Washington Bullets, Dictator, Career Oppertunities, etc... In short, most of their catalog was political. Check my signiture. I'd read Marcus Gray's "Return of the Last gang in Town" before making such strong pronouncements.
     
  13. ghost in the void

    ghost in the void Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    NGNM85, why are you even bothering trying to educate these people? they obviously just want to spout rubbish about stuff they know nothing about, like most internet users do.

    my favourite music is underground punk, like d-beat and crust etc. political as fuck, but their lyrics are hidden behind screamed or growled vocals, and inaccessible walls of distortion. it sounds better than anything else to me, but the fact is it's music for people who already "are in the know", unless you have access to a lyricsheet. mainstream bands like THE CLASH write music that has clear political lyrics, and have an accessible "pop" sound. it's bands like them who reach people and have the potential to change more opinions. call 'em sellouts, call 'em whatever, but they did more for the emergence of political punk rock than most bands out there. for this alone they deserve kudos, and all the shit talking on the web won't change that.

    1 or 2 political songs? jeebus corpus christi. go back to school.
     
  14. NGNM85

    NGNM85 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    My perscription, precisely.
     
  15. ghost in the void

    ghost in the void Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    for the sake of readers out there, i'm quoting this because you wrote it, not me (although it appears as my quote).

    i understand your mentality on this. i am very similar in real life, challenging others constantly, especially the ones whose opinions i hold dear. a friend of mine calls it critical solidarity. i just find on the internet people can hide behind usernames, can write anything they want without repercussion, and even pretend to represent ideas they abhor. many argue just to get a thrill, rather than for the sake of anything they believe.

    good on you for trying though. you're braver than i am. i prefer to keep my battles in the here and now. not that i won't drop a tirade or two on the net when the whim strikes me, which is getting a little too frequent for my liking lately.
     
  16. NGNM85

    NGNM85 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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  17. Outlaw_(A)_Punk

    Outlaw_(A)_Punk Member Forum Member


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    Sep 15, 2009
     
    Why do you tell me, which book i've to read? I'd like to remember you, that's an anarchist forum..
    I've read "Punkrock" by John Robb where peoble who know the early punk scene tell about this age and how they experienced.

    Maybe, I didn't put it right. I did want to say if the pistols were a band of today, i'd hate them. But i respect them in a way for what they did, because they started something very important (to me).

    I agree, if you have succes (can we say that? sounds strange to me :S ) you probably can't do everything on your own. But that doesn't mean you have a manager who tells you what to do and how do you have to dress.
    The thing about the clash i've to read once again..
     
  18. Extinction

    Extinction Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 1, 2009
     
    Here here! :beers: I love my political crust and d-beat.
     
  19. disfuck

    disfuck Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 11, 2009
     
    i must say the clash were political and i must say that they are a decent band
     
  20. NGNM85

    NGNM85 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I skimmed Robb's book,it looked ok. However, I have spent a considerable amount of time and effort into researching punk rock, exploring it. My personal collection includes those volumes as well as "On the Road with the Ramones", "American Hardcore", "Lexicon Devil: The Life of Darby Crash", "Cinderella's Big Score: Women of Punk and Indie Underground", "Punk" by Steven Colegrave, "Punk: The Whole Story" by DK publishing, "My So-Called Punk" (Great book with a stupid title.), "Rip it Up and Start Again: Postpunk 1978-1984", "London's Burning", "The Day the Country Died: history of Anarcho Punk", and a number of other volumes. Regarding the Sex Pistols I have read Savage's book, John Lydon's autobiography, Noel Monk's "12 Days on the Road With the Sex Pistols", "Sid Vicious" by Malcolm Butt, and "And I don't Want to Live This Life" by Nancy Spungen's mother. I also have every track, although not every version, they ever released and "The Filth & The Fury" documentary, and the "NTMB" classic albums documentary, as well as "The Great Rock "n Roll Swindle." I have three different volumes on Nirvana, alone. So this, combined with 12 years in the punk rock scene, is why I have a pronounced lack of patience when someone attempts to tell me what punk rock is. I think that makes sense.

    I also feel perfectly comfortable recommending those books because I read them.

    The Sex Pistols wouldn't be possible today, but, yes, they did lay the groundwork for Crass, Discharge, the Dead Kennedys, and everything that came after them.

    Just because a band has a manager doesn't mean they become puppets. Many bands run their own affairs, but retain a manager to oversee details like booking venues, arranging transportation, merchandise distribution, like albums and t-shirts, and stuff like that. Malcolm McLaren most certainly was about as uninvolved as a manager could get, his giggest contribution beyond a rehearsal space was to pocket most of the bands' earnings, he didn't even go to most of their shows.

    I suggest you do, again, I recommend Marcus Gray's book, it is the definitive volume on the Clash. I also recommend listening to "London Calling, and Sandinista!". (The latter being a homage to the socialist Nicaraguan revolutionaries.)
     
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