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Johnny Rotten is now making publicity for the capitalist industry !!

Discussion in 'Music, punk scene & subcultures' started by ungovernable, May 13, 2010.

  1. metalpunx

    metalpunx Active Member Forum Member


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    The Sex Pistols were genuinely political. They were never part of the DIY movement. Their purpose from the beginning was just to play rock and roll music that would shock the masses – at the end of the day they were little more than a stripped down version of Alice Cooper. Call them “capitalist” if you'd like, but saying they betrayed a concept they never really supported seems a rather silly thing to do.
     
  2. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    defending them to a scene of people who expect bands to practice what they preach and stand up for issues is kid of a silly thing to do.
     
  3. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nah, their purpose from beginning was to make some money, shocking the masses was just part of the method.
     
  4. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    And where do you get this from ? You are just saying random bullshit or you have proofs ?

    I have seen numerous interviews of crass members where they say they never made any money out of gigs, they never sold any crass products (all crass products are unauthorized merch), and most of their gigs was either free or a benefit for some organisations. As for the albums, they used to write stuff like "buy no more than 2euros" on the album's cover to avoid peoples making profit over the albums.

    Saying crass bought property with the money they made from music sounds like big bullshit to me, especially considering the fact that Penny and Eve Libertine lives in a squat.
     
  5. Rathryn

    Rathryn Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Actually Dial House is no longer a squat, they DID buy the land. And they DID make money off of gigs.
    However! Most of the cash they got from gigs went to charities, locally usually, or where the gig was held. The only reason they could afford Dial House is because people chipped in and they're still paying off the loans they took out with friends. All this info was taken from: Crass: There Is No Authority But Yourself. And comes directly from Crass members Steve Ignorant, Eve Libertine (off the top of my head) and Penny Rimbaud.
     
  6. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Well a squat can't last forever it has to end. At least it's still an anarchist commune, initiatives like that are very interessing. We all complaint against anything that isn't a squat but we all live in appartments and we all pay the evil proprietary, don't we ?

    that's not what they said in interviews... Anyway i'm pretty sure if they did, they kept a very little percentage of profit for themselves. And ALL anarcho bands in the world make profits, so because it's crass isn't different, they are not the gods of anarchism who are supposed to be perfect...
     
  7. metalpunx

    metalpunx Active Member Forum Member


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    I'd agree, it would be rather silly if I was defending him. Its a good thing that I'm not, as I've never considered the Sex Pistols as anything \but\ cooperate-sponsored rock and roll. I think Johnny Rotten would agree, too.

    "Selling out" implies that you have a certian set of ethic in the first place; in this case, the DIY anarcho-punk ethic. Obviously, the Sex Pistols never did. Their use of anarchism was akin to Venom's use of Satanism; it was just a silly gimmick to sell records. You can criticize them for that, enjoy them for what they are, or whatever... But you can't sell-out when your whole intent was to cash-in.
     
  8. Rathryn

    Rathryn Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Please read more than one sentence from my post... Seriously...
     
  9. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Yeah, all squats end, but in the real world, we kinda just find another, rather than buy the the place, and plenty of anarchist bands don't make profits.
     
  10. nodz

    nodz Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Are there many squats in and around Melbourne?
     
  11. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    I doubt it.

    Punk is not about selling out, right ?

    So a band who claim themselves punk and start making tons of money and becomming a marketting products ARE betraying their ideas and selling out...

    Or maybe you think that green day aren't selling out ? Blink 182 aren't sell out ? Simple plan aren't sell out ?

    Basically following your theory all of the pop-punks bands are not sellouts because they never had another objective than making money....


    i wouldnt call that "making profits" but rather "a benefit for"

    Please name ONLY ONE famous anarcho-punk band who doesn't make profits ?

    There's nothing wrong with buying the place to have an anarchist commune. Squats are better but it's only temporary. You critize crass and anarchist commune a lot but i'm sure you live in an appartement or even worse, in your parents basement.

    I'm not a crass fanboy but seriously you guys are just trying to find stupid reasons to critize them when you wouldn't have done better yourself.
     
  12. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Not sure I know of any 'famous' anarcho-punk bands, so maybe you should let me know what you mean by that, but as far as UK goes, apart from Crass, Conflict and maybe Subhumans and Oi Polloi, I doubt any make profit at all, and a lot operate at a loss. I don't live in an apartment or my parent's basement, and a got lot more reasons to criticize Crass than this, and Conflict too, for that matter. I dunno about Subhumans, but Oi Polloi still got my respect.
     
  13. metalpunx

    metalpunx Active Member Forum Member


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    Punk is nothing but one of many sub-genres birthed from rock and roll; its music, nothing more and nothing less. That said, music is an art form. As an art form, it \can\ be used as a tool for protest.

    It can also be used as entertainment. The Ramones formed a band because they didn't like the pretentious progressive rock that was popular at the time; it had nothing to do with any sort of political statement... They just wanted to get back hearing stripped down rock music. As such, they would only be betraying the band's original purpose if they decided they would release a technically complex album with “epic” production. The entire idea that punk is sacred is nothing more than the scene having a sense of self-importance.

    Don't get me wrong – I'm still anti-capitalist, but I really don't think Johnny Rotten betrayed some DIY punk ethos as the Sex Pistols never pretended that they were Crass. He did something far worse; he betrayed himself by basically using his status as a means to prostitute /himself/. So... I suppose he is a “sell-out” but not quite in the way the topic implies.

    I digress. “Punk” is nothing but a silly label, that I often wonder why I associate myself with. After all, my anarchism has nothing to do with the counter-culture as I considered myself an anarchist long before I even picked up a punk record... Then I remember, I love the music! As I've said to a friend in the past, “punk is metal, metal is punk, and its all rock and roll. All hail rock and roll.” All hail rock and roll, indeed.


    tl;dr version: You can't sell-out of a scene, you can only sell your soul.
     
  14. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    if you believe that then why are you on an anarcho punk site? most of us here expect the bands we listen to in that genre to practice what they preach, to us punk is more then a style and a fashion, and if that is all you care about then you are in the wrong place, and considering you like metal, which is a genre all about excess, i doubt you would know shit about genuine people making music.
     
  15. metalpunx

    metalpunx Active Member Forum Member


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    Why am I here? Because I'm an anarchist. That enjoys punk music.

    Did I ever say that's all I care about? I have a great deal of respect for the D.I.Y. ethic and bands that spend their entire careers that never really sell that many records and simply work on the music because they love it. It's also nice to listen to bands whose ethics I agree with. That said, as a musical genre... Punk is just stripped down rock and roll. ANARCHO-PUNK is something different, because of that little adjective that makes it different than the Misfits, Negative Approaches, and Ramones of the world. A punk band can be used as an engine to create money, even if it is political - an ANARCHO-PUNK band is held at higher standards.

    As I said, calling the Sex Pistols "sell-outs" are rather silly because they never had anything to sell... Their sole intent was to shock the masses and make money... And frankly, the died out before the whole D.I.Y. movement really got started. It's like calling KISS (horrible band, btw) sell-outs... When all they wanted to do was get rich and laid. Are they capitalists that only care about money? Of fuckin' course. But are they sell-outs? No, because they never betrayed what they set out to do for a buck... Because they wanted to make a buck, in first place. All sell-outs are greedy bastards... But not all greedy bastards are sell-outs.

    As for not being able to "know shit about genuine people making music", biased much? I won't deny that there's fuck of a lot of metal that's just... Entertainment. Listening to Venom, for instance, is more or less like watching a cheesy horror movie - don't expect any real fulfillment but if you let yourself go, can still have a good time.

    Let's not forget that metal, while not (always) anarchist is still often anti-authoritarian - and often political. Skyclad, a heavy/folk metal band, has lyrics that would fit on most punk records, Sodom is has always had an anti-war stance, Motorhead was always genuinely critical of both the State and Religion...

    I could go on... Let's not forget that both genres are fuckin' cousins. Amebix was inspired by Sabbath and Motorhead, and at the end of the day... Black metal and crust are stylistically similar... To a point where now you have a growing Red and Anarchist Black Metal scene.
     
  16. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Oi Polloi makes money too. Same for Subhumans.

    Crass is definatly not a band that you can critize for making money and/or using the money for wrong causes.

    All anarcho-punk bands makes profits. The problem is not that, it's the ammount of profits they make and what they do with it. I'm pretty sure any reasonned person can understand that it is legitimate for a band to make a small part of profit, just to ensure they are able to keep touring, feed themselves if they are too busy with the band to work, buy/repair their equipements and release new albums. As long as they don't sell out or makes a living out of punk, it's all okay with me. Crass is definatly respectable on that.

    Wow, statements like that are disgusting, it's the same thing we usually hear from the 12 years old pop-punkers who love shitty bands like green day and say "punk is just a music"

    Punk is not just a music, it's a state of mind, a counter-culture, a way of life and a rebellion. If you think punk is just music and art then you are an ignorant and you don't know anything about punk.

    Following your reasonment, we could say that Avril Lavigne, Green Day and Simple Plan are true punks. After all, punk is just a music, nothing more nothing less... :lmao:

    No future wasn't only about the music. The rebellion in UK wasn't only about the music. What persuaded the young kids to become punks was not only about the music.

    Your reasonement is as stupid as saying that skinhead is just music...

    Anarcho-punk = proof that punk is not only about the music.
     
  17. Ivanovich

    Ivanovich Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    FYI, profit is what if left after costs. Crass made a living, as do Conflict. Oi Polloi choose not to, they burn what they make on tours, and that's from Deek, but I seen how much they tour, I got no reason to doubt it. The rest are lucky if they can cover expenses, and £70k for a farm, sorry, anarchist commune... but someone owes them a living, right?
     
  18. Shuei

    Shuei Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I've been talking to so many musicians about this, some of them because i have agreements to go on tour with them etc.

    It's so easy for us to say "don't earn money don't do use them!", but at the end of the day, money is necessary to survive as the society is right now, and if you want to keep touring, you've got to have some money, just for new equipment and surviving. Can you get a little so that technicians and such can get some too, it's great.
    Therefore, money is necessary. I think DIY Is a great movement, that has allowed a lot of great bands to play, without being put in major debt by their record-companies, without having to use thousands on hiring busdrivers etc, and with most of the promoting and technical support done by people who volunteer because they love what they do.
    Many of the major bands live in debt to their record companies, because the companies spend large amounts on promotion and cool equipment without consulting the bands, for then expecting their band to earn the money.

    So, DIY is a great, but some money is always necessary - i haven't seen Crass on MTV Crips flashing for billions of dollars of unnecessary shit right? They are certainly in it for the music. The low cost makes it hard to promote the music the same etc. , but they don't do it for the money.
    Generally , very few underground artist's are in it for the money. There's way more money in pop-music. Some just get caugt in debt-traps by their record companies etc. , because they hoped to be able to play longer tours and get something to eat between the shows.

    The capitalist industry has a way of infiltrating any movement or institution. Crass, Conflict, Oi-Polloi and Subhumans are aware of this and knows how to handle around it... Other bands don't.

    I'm not saying thats what happened with the Sex Pistols, it's just a reminder, that sell-out bands are people too, and sometimes they are caught.

    Sex Pistols defined a huge part of the punk culture, they created an impact on history that has lead to many creative directions in music and they still to this day, criticize culture etc. They are non an anti-capitalist band and they are greedy bastards for sure - but it's not like they are bathing in money. Nevermind the Bollocks became over promoted, and they had a terrible deal, so they actually didn't even earn that much on that one - there by not saying that they aren't commercial, but there by said, that if they wanted to make a living or maybe even payback for all the promotion, they have to sell merchandise.
     
  19. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Technically yes, but FYI an organization that makes money out of something and then give away this money is called a non-profit organization ;) So a band that makes money but use it for good causes would be called a non-profit band !

    Crass made a living out of their music ?? Yeahhhh righhttt... Seriously dude, you say a lot of thing but you can't prove anything. Crass didn't made any profit out of the sale of their albums. They didn't sold any products like tshirts. And most of their gigs were a benefit for something... Considering they didnt make hundreds of gigs, maybe they made a little money out of less than a dozen of gigs, but this is far from being enough to make a living, especially at the price they made their gigs...

    It has been said that this money was B-O-R-R-O-W-E-D.

    Anyway, what the fuck is wrong with investing money for the anarchist cause ? We live in a capitalist society, and we still need money to fund our projects. Without money there wouldnt be a single anarchist organisation, not a single anarchist commune, etc...

    You critize everything but what have you done in your life ? If you were at their place you'd probably did even worse.

    Trashing a band only because they make VERY LITTLE money while you do nothing is ridiculous, especially when those bands have a great message and is an influence for a lot of peoples.

    For the rest, i totally agree with Shuei
     
  20. Probe

    Probe Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    actually I was gonna ask this question too, is there?
     
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