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PRISON ABOLITION???

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by drumdestroyer15, Mar 15, 2010.

  1. DrunkSquid

    DrunkSquid Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 11, 2009
     
    no prisons should not be abolished, what they should do is turn prisons into mental hospitals
     
  2. ASA

    ASA Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 2, 2009
     
    prisons will never be abolished but they should sure minimise the industry, the health insdustry is not nec healthy unless u have ya wits about ya, theclaws sposed to protect the weak *cough, funny thing is we made up the good laws not the draconian ones, i mean 'fought' for
     
  3. ILuvEire

    ILuvEire Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Apr 5, 2010
     
    So, I was going to go through the thread and address each and every issue people have with the abolition of prisons, but I could see a lot of common trends, so I'll try to answer my opinion on the common thoughts. Obviously, let me know if I still left something empty, because I want to cover all my bases ideologically when I take my stance that says prisons are BAD.

    I don't personally feel that a majority of those who are in prison, would be there in an ideal society. I think that in a true anarcho-communist society, many murders and rapes would be eliminated because (as most criminologists would tell you) most of these crimes are committed because an individual cannot feel the connection between himself and other people. When he sees everyone else as "other," he cannot care for their well-being. I should hope that in any decent anarcho-communist society, NO ONE would be seen as "other."

    Certain individuals, however, may be born sociopaths (think Hannibal Lector, and definitely not Ed Gein.) These individuals DO NOT belong in a prison. They are sick, in every sense of the word. We should never demonize them, rather we should wish to get them help. Obviously, many of them will never be able to lead a successful life by themselves, so they should be taken care of, and allowed to live the most successful life they can, without causing harm to other PATIENTS.

    Sending them to a penal colony can be automatically written out. That is just another name for a prison in isolation, rather than one with with stone walls. I think expulsion from the community, however, could and should be seen as a punishment, just for the most grievous crimes, or in situations where the individual does not wish to be a part of society any longer. They should not be forced to stay (as it is in our current system, people can't just go off into a field and live by themselves if they want, the government will be knocking on their door expecting income tax etc. etc. etc.)

    Anxiety69, I feel your pain, regarding hunts and vigilante justice. I think there are many people who would wish that things were like this, but I think that they're still in an authorotarian, capitalist mind set. Why is it that they need to be "punished" at all? You mentioned that prisons are rehabilitation centers, but this couldn't be farther from the truth. Prisons exist because of the authoritarian belief that when you do something wrong, you should be punished, then, once you've served your punishment, you should be allowed to go back to what you were doing. This simply does not work! I believe that people commit "crimes" for a reason, mindless violence doesn't happen (except in the previously mentioned cases of sociopaths etc.) There should be a system of rehabilitation, and treatment for these individuals that commit a "crime." Obviously, it would be different for every crime, but I think that serious counselling and understanding why they did what they did and why that is unacceptable in the community is much more important than the victim getting their "revenge." Revenge is really a very childish concept.

    Rude-boy, you said that there would be nothing stopping you from killing someone if you wanted. But there would. If you don't understand that killing is wrong, then you would be subject to counselling and therapy (hopefully this would be noticed earlier, BEFORE you actually did the killing. And of course, I'm speaking hypothetically, as I hope you are. I don't *really* think that you don't understand that killing is wrong :) ). So my opinion in this case, is that the psychological effects of communal living would cause less of these grievous crimes, and when they actually did happen, they would be rehabilitated. I would HOPE that in an anarcho-communist society, we could get past the need for revenge, and just understand that people make mistakes. I think that, if a murder were to take place, the family of the victims would probably be subject to some counseling themselves, to get over that feeling that they need revenge. Revenge is pointless and selfish. If you "get them back," all you've done is made yourself feel better, while also hurting someone else in the process. Your dead family member is still dead, and most likely, now there's a whole other family who lost a member.

    This is totally unrelated to the prison debate, but I think you should think more about private versus public property. I like to use these marxist dialectics, essentially marking the difference between public property (something used to make money) and private property (personal possessions.) So, in an anarcho-communist society, one would not be able to "own" things like land, machinery, factories etc., but you would still be able to have personal items, like your toothbrush or books.

    I collect books too, it's fun :)
     
  4. A Better World

    A Better World Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Feb 28, 2010
     
    Abolishing prisons would make us free to learn how to work things out on our own. There will always be crime by those sic enough to commit violent ones like rape and murder but i think we can all agree that government has done little to stop them and has used much worse systematic violence in the process. Take away money and power and every other crime will become obsolete because there would be nothing to gain from doing such a crime.
     
  5. Saering

    Saering Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Dec 18, 2009
     
  6. Jeremy

    Jeremy New Member New Member


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    Great post, ILuvEire.

    Having seen the world from inside a prison, I can say confidently and without exception that prisons need to be abolished. No one deserves to be treated in such a way. Most are there for crimes that shouldn't be crimes and those that truly need to be isolated need to be isolated in mental hospitals. They are not well.

    I was inside for some exceedingly petty charges, stemming from a bar fight in which I was only peripherally involved, more or less without evidence. I was subjected to sexual abuse from both the other prisoners and the guards as well as under constant threat of physical harm. I wasn't a violent guy before I went in, but it took me a while after I got out to shake the feeling that I had to violently protect myself constantly.
     
  7. ILuvEire

    ILuvEire Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Apr 5, 2010
     
    Yes! I can definitely vouch for that essay, it's probably one of my favorite Emma Goldman essays!

    Oh wow. It definitely sounds like you were subject to some form of PTSD. Which, if anyone doesn't remember, is also what combatants coming back from the guerrilla warfare in the Vietnam war. Isn't it incredible (incredibly infuriating, angering, annoying, frustrating, ridiculous, you fill in the adjective) that this happens right down the highway from where you live?

    Jeremy, wow, my condolences, I'm so sorry that you had to go through something like that, it's ridiculous. I hope you're doing better nowadays, feel free to talk to me if you ever need someone to talk to. I've never been in your situation, but I can listen to anything you'd like to share. :)
     
  8. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
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    No i did not, i may have said this tongue in cheek, but i have adamantly stated that prisons serve one purpose (whether real or in theory) to keep 'dangerous' peoples away from the general population of society. Rehabilitation is a blissful myth.

    Also, the theory that every can be cured because criminal behavior is an illness, to me, is a load of BS. Criminals exist because people will always think they are better them the general stands that are set by civilizations and societies. Nothing will ever change or eradicate that completely. True, in an anarcho society, there would be far less crime, because most things people are put away for would be legal or irrelevant, some examples are drug users, counterfeiters, white collar criminals, etc. But if you think you can just put a sociopathic person in rehab and change them, you are dead wrong. Sociopathy has nothing to do with classes or systems, criminality has always existed since the dawn of man, and it is naive to think that can be changed instead of accommodated for.
     
  9. ILuvEire

    ILuvEire Experienced Member Experienced member


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    Apr 5, 2010
     
    Well, I made a distinction between sociopaths and criminals. A sociopath is someone who, true, can never be rehabbed. I think, however, that they belong in a mental hospital, much more than they belong in a prison (the difference being that one is an institution of medicine and one is just a box.) I think sociopaths are unfortunately, a member of society that does indeed just need to be isolated. Extensive therapy and rehabbing can lead to them being able to lead a semi-normal life, but I don't think that they'll really be changed, more like learning how to deal with their sociopathy. But then again, this is all very theoretical, we don't exactly know what a sociopath is yet, so the best treatment would be therapy and isolation.

    A criminal on the other hand, would be someone who could be rehabbed and come back into society with therapy. An example could be someone who suffered from anger issues all throughout their life, then eventually beat their wife to death. This person just needs to learn how to deal with their feelings in a constructive way. These people will always exist, people will always have trouble dealing with anger, but they shouldn't be locked away for the rest of their lives, just because of one long day that ended up in an awful mess. You know what I mean?
     
  10. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
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    well, what if they snap again, and kill again? do we just let them continue to do this?
     
  11. Myechtatel

    Myechtatel New Member New Member


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    Feb 28, 2010
     
    Are you guys really anarchists? I mean what the hell!? This sounds like some dipshit liberal debate. I haven't seen a radical thought here at all. I don't know what you guys are reading but maybe you should burn your books and try meeting some anarchists or spending a day at a squat. Anarchy is not another social order to be put in place by some self righteous group of power hungry fucking aristocrats. In order for "revolution" to even happen, people need to generate revolution within themselves. Would you guys go around raping and pillaging if there was no government? If you are anarchists, then the answer would be no. So what makes you think anyone else would? First of all, if there are no rules or laws to break who would you put in prison, you wouldn't need one! It's not that you're abolishing prisons, you're abolishing the idea of prison. Some of the responses I've read on here are absolutely ridiculous. You can't make someone pay back what they took through work. For one, there is no concept of theft or value. Two, No one is gonna steal something that is readily available. Three, you can't force labor, what are you? A FUCKING CAPITALIST?!?! Here's how it works. Murder is gone with abolition of war and power struggles. Rape is gone with the abolition of patriarchy and monogamy. Theft is gone with the abolition of property. If anyone has problems with someone, you work it out. That's what fucking COMMUNITY is!
     
  12. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
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    ok, then i guess other motives for murder are magically gone too, like greed, jealously, or just flat not likeing someone (just a few examples)

    Ok, so people who rape for power struggles or just for the feeling of power that comes with dominating a woman will just say, 'hey wait, we have anarchy now! we don't need to rape! La La LA'

    WOW why didnt we think of that, you know what, i want your head, so i will just cut it off and hey, there is no property so your head doesn't belong to you, and it's not murder because there is no more war!

    Oh yeah, because everyone you will ever encounter is RATIONAl... oh wait... THIS ISN'T A DISNEY MOVIE!

    I would call you a fool, but I guess if there was anarchy, there would be no such thing as ignoarnce either, because all the books will have been burned, because reading causes people to learn and be more intelligent then others, and that paradoxes equality?

    :lmao: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :lmao: :lmao: :ecouteurs: :ecouteurs: :lmao:
     
  13. Rathryn

    Rathryn Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 21, 2009
     
    Seconded.... lol
     
  14. Myechtatel

    Myechtatel New Member New Member


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    Feb 28, 2010
     
    Disney movies aren't very rational, i dont know if you've ever seen one but thats besides the point. anyway, it's people like you who are hjolding the rest of us back. if you're not an anarchist, why are you on a site called ANARCHO punk.net?!?
     
  15. AnarchoFem

    AnarchoFem Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Apr 15, 2010
     
    So monogamy has to be abolished??? Wtf, I'd love for you to explain that one for me. People should be allowed be non-monogamous or monogamous if they want, yet you are saying monogamy should be abolished...why? And also how do you propose to do that..
     
  16. Vegetarian Barbarian

    Vegetarian Barbarian Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 19, 2009
     
    I feel there should be some type of organization that can deal with "criminals" within an anarchist society whatever that may be and ill help work for a better solution than prisons.

    BUT

    I feel for people who are victims to murders, rapists, child molesters, kidnappers etc. etc. have the right to personally FUCK THOSE PEOPLE UP. Once you cross these lines, your life is good as dead in my book. If someone were to touch my kids or rape my wife, im gunna fuckin kill them. I dont care how you feel on this subject.

    Is this an eye for an eye? In the cases i listed above yes, but for things like drugs, stealing, "vandalism" etc. etc. there is a way better alternative than prisons (which lead people who are convicted with little problems like these to do something like murder or rape others)

    And to say that rape and murder is COMPLETELY gone within an anarchist society, you are fucking naive and stupid.
     
  17. AtomicKhaos

    AtomicKhaos Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Nov 16, 2009
     
    Prisons to me are just another tool to help the "system" or whatever you want to call it, in applying anxiety in the general population.

    It is nothing more but to make you feel "safer" that people who kill each other or what have you, are locked away with no chance of parole. Most communes i have read about in books or i have visited, do have some terms of rules, be respectful of people's property, don't incite drama... etc etc.

    So i would feel, after prisons are removed from the world. Us comrades of our movement, would possibly have "chapters" or other "tribes" as it were of communes. If someone has the impulse to kill someone, or steals from the commune. I would see it to a vote whether or not that person is "banished" from the commune, or helped.

    Life without money would cure anxiety almost entirely. You dont have to worry about bills, car payments, insurance payments, clothes, food, a place to live. That sums up mostly everyone's lives right there. Busting their ass at work for a week to make 200 dollars, when you have about 80 bucks left over after the month and you have paid everything. In some cases you are still in debt, and you need to find two jobs.

    So you knock over a convenience store, thinking you could make a big score, and feed your family or yourself.

    How inconvenient... you are now in jail, didnt kill anyone, just needed to eat. You pointed your finger at the clerk in your pocket to make it seem like a weapon. And now you go to jail for 5-25 years.

    All for the government to make further money off you.
     
  18. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
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    what the fuck is that supposed to mean (assuming it was directed at me) I'm not an anarchist because i believe crime will still exist in an anarcho society? You make three posts here and have carte blanch to label me? Fuck you troll. You could have at least responded to my points, which i feel are valid and yours are nonsense.
     
  19. NGNM85

    NGNM85 Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Sep 8, 2009
     
    For once Anxiety and myself are in near total agreement.
     
  20. Anxiety69

    Anxiety69 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    Oct 18, 2009
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    i just looked out my window to make sure pigs aren't flying (and i noticed a police helicopter... same thing...)
     
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