Loosing my patience

[butcher]

You're a fucking ignorant bastard, with all due respect. Read about how the mind of the slaves became so easily controllable due to the lack of education. How their "individuality was lost due to an anorexic consciousnesses." Don't just argue blankly without any knowledge of what you're saying. One must first learn to later understand. As to the central committee... I'm still in denial of weather anarchism works or not. Everything I've learn leads me to the understanding that it ISN'T possible, But my believes still say it is. What's best for my people, is what it's best for me.

Yeah, obviously. So could you give a sauce for the quote you used?
My ignorance has obviously led me not to point to the vast history of slave rebellions and resistance as outlined by numerous authors, such as Howard Zinn and Eduardo Galeano, instead I've just had a glance at wikipedia and it certainly seems to confirm yr contentions that 'slaves didn't realize there was anything wrong with slaving people".

[Cascadian]

Somehow I ended up with a mouth full of your words and you ended up with a mouthful of meat...not a very good deal

In 2004 an Aboriginal man was beaten to death by a police officer. There have been numerous such Aboriginal deaths in custody, but this one was different, it was the first time in Australia's history that a police officer was charged for the death. Why? Because there were riots on the island where it took place. The murderer, Chris Hurley, was eventually acquitted, given a promotion and $100,000, whilst the 'leader' of the riots was sent to jail for a few years. Such is the legal system.

A rather large example, yes. 'Mission Australia' claims to assist more than 300,000 Australians. Further, Mission Australia's CEO, Toby Hall, was the former head of Australia's largest charity - World Vision. Also mentioned as a major benefactor of the privatisation of the Australian welfare system is The Salvation Army. So it is not a story about some pissy little dodgy charity, but rather about some of Australia's biggest and most reputable ngos; it is a reflection of the dual shifts from State provided social welfare in Australia to privatised social welfare and of the restructuring of large ngo bodies along business models. "What Toby’s analysis boils down to is a call for Government to support the enactment by MA of stricter disciplinary measures upon its clients. In brief, the suspension of their welfare payments should they fail to meet the corporation’s ‘activity tests’. In prosaic terms, Toby is asking for a bigger stick with which to beat the unemployed."
So we see that the CEO of one of Australia's largest and most respectable NGOs reflect the tendency for such NGOs (increasingly organised according to the same economically liberal models as large corporations) to act not to help the poor, but to discipline them.

Yeah, see, this is what you call "anecdotal evidence", especially the first one. It doesn't hold up. Look dude, no one is saying that the system isn't fucked. People hardly ever get justice when you look at the big picture. I never said "the system works!" That is not the argument we're having. You keep missing the point completely and bringing up individual incidents to justify a point of view that is not objective in the slightest. This is an argument about taking personal responsibility for the state of affairs and working within every parameter of your civilian ability to change things. Why are you trying to downplay the fact that people dedicate their whole lives for your benefit? Why are you trying to shit on the people that are making huge differences, when you aren't doing shit for anyone? You're a hypocrite if you think people aren't being effective when they're trying to be constructive. The OP, and a common attitude in anachism, is saying "things are getting really shitty, WHEN WILL SOMEONE BOMB THE WHITEHOUSE!?! I'M A VICTIM AND I CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT BITCH ABOUT IT!!!" I just don't understand why anarchists underplay practicality when those "straight suits" are effecting much more change in our society than any amount of brick throwing. Everyone that's aware of what's happening feels angry, I get that. I'm angry too. But anger often leads to victimhood and victimhood leads to passivism, which is exactly what the gentleman in the OP was expressing. If the only two options presented to people are "blow eveything up or die" that doesn't motivate anyone to be productive. Destruction is not productive, no matter how you try to rationalize it. I just want people that are angry and disenfranchised to realize that they still have a great deal of power, but it requires them to open their minds and consider other options.

Maybe australia is an orwellian no man's land and no good has ever come of anything. I don't know, I'm not very familiar with everything that happens there. The US gets a bad rep around the world for being one of the most draconian, and yet I can be optimistic and see differences being made. More likely, you're stuck in a victim's state of mind and surround yourself with exclusively bad news. The fact that that "charity" is the largest, again, does not change the validity of my original statement, because I did not advocate working for anyone in particular. Irrelevant. Do some research, find an organization that is reputable. Come on now, this shouldn't be too hard to understand. You didn't answer my question: DOES EVERY NONPROFIT HAVE BLOOD ON ITS HANDS?

Yr basically saying that sure, Obama is doing some bad things, but if he wasn't then the Republicans would be doing it WORSE! This is merely speculative. Some things are probably a little better, some worse, overall there is fuck all difference.
Moreover, yr encouraging people to vote on the basis "[Obama] is making things worse more slowly". Why would you bother? Are you so cynical that the social actions aiming to change the world you encourage are merely attempts at slowing down our own destruction?

If you think it's speculative that the right wing WOULDN'T be doing things worse then you are completely out of touch with how these parties work. I don't blame you. Many people that feel disenfranchised write it off completely and as a result they don't know much about the innerworkings of a very complicated system. Dems and Reps are not kicking back brews together. It's easy to write this off as a one-dimensional process, but it's not. Far from it. I don't have time to explain this to you, but both parties have seperate agendas and the right wing is notably more insidious, as evidenced by the fact that Obama passes fucked legislation writted up by the right and to appease the Right Majority in the House. The Dems are in support of many things the right are outspokenly against. Did you forget that? Obama is putting putting more emphasis on renewable energy, green jobs, environmental and health standards than ever before. How can you not see this is an ENORMOUS deal? I shouldn't have to bring up birth control and gay marrage again.

Then you go on to admit that "some beter, some worse" The some better is the point I'm driving here. Throughout the past few decades, the decline of the US can by and large be attributed to right wing politicians. When a faction shifts a nation into a certain direction, the idea of there being an immediate halt is completely delusional. Democrats will inherit the state as it is, and the influences of their own agendas are limited by the situation they are dealing with. So as a result, it looks like they are staying a course because they are, but they are gently grinding the gears in reverse. Worse Getting Slower. That's what that looks like. Imagine a truck barreling down a highway. An immediate halt is not realistic, so the best you can do is slow down the direction you're already going in.

And yes it does make a difference. Maybe not a big enough difference to solve any problems, but enough of one that it's a small step in the right direction. That's how change happens. Many, many incremental changes over a period of time. You can argue all you want about how that's not the effective way or not the right way, but that's how it's happening right now whether you want to admit and be a part of it or not.

Why bother? Because the absolute minimum amount of effort that it takes to vote could avoid huge problems later in the future. Like I said, imagine if bush was not elected. The same principal applies to littering, eating meat, volunteering, etc. Yeah, you as one individual making one small step may seem pointless when you look at the small picture, but all of these small changes in conjuction with all the other small changes that everyone should make add up and THAT makes a difference. Why would you not dedicate every ounce of your ability to make the world a better place if you consider yourself an anarchist? Why wouldn't anyone do one small thing that helps?

I said it before, and I'll say it again. I NEVER said that voting was a subtitute for any meaningful action, just that it's the very least you could do. And it's not "Slowing down our destruction", it's making things easier and work as best in your favor as you could possibly control. This is the last thing citizens can control. Why throw that away too?

You ask that like it matters. It doesn't. Are the ideas of a social justice lawyer more valuable than those of a dishpig? Do you think a lot of people have much choice about where they work, or are our choices limited? Isn't the fact that many people are forced to work boring/dangerous/socially damaging jobs for shit pay part of the problem?

Uh yeah it does matter, because you're sitting here and underplaying the efforts of highly intellgent and motivated people, dismissing the legimate impacts they are having for your benefit as frivolous wastes of time. If you're such a hotshot, I'd like to see if you are doing anything with your life but discouraging people from doing anything productive. Many of the more outspokenly aggressive/cementheaded anarchists I know either have no job or a shitty one. Again with the victim complexes. Listen, I'm not priveleged in any way shape or form. I got my GED at 22 when I living in a homeless shelter. I got my shit together and went to school, and next year I'll have a bachelor's in environmental engineering. I made a lot of sacrifices to be where I am, and not everyone can do the same thing. I'm fine with that. But I do have a problem with people that are constantly negative and criticize other people's good intentions when they themselves aren't doing a fucking thing but being a waste of life.

how big is yours?

Much, much bigger than yours. It's not something I pull out in public, but when people ask I gotta tell 'em...

[butcher]

Yeah, see, this is what you call "anecdotal evidence", especially the first one. It doesn't hold up. Look dude, no one is saying that the system isn't fucked. People hardly ever get justice when you look at the big picture. I never said "the system works!" That is not the argument we're having.

So, if it is fucked, does one 'work within it to make it better' or argue for a different system? This is where we differ. And my 'anecdotal evidence', by yr statements, 'holds up'. Given "people hardly ever get justice when you look at the big picture", how does providing specific examples of the 'big picture' undermine my argument?

You keep missing the point completely and bringing up individual incidents to justify a point of view that is not objective in the slightest.

objectivity is impossible.

This is an argument about taking personal responsibility for the state of affairs and working within every parameter of your civilian ability to change things. Why are you trying to downplay the fact that people dedicate their whole lives for your benefit? Why are you trying to shit on the people that are making huge differences, when you aren't doing shit for anyone? You're a hypocrite if you think people aren't being effective when they're trying to be constructive. The OP, and a common attitude in anachism, is saying "things are getting really shitty, WHEN WILL SOMEONE BOMB THE WHITEHOUSE!?! I'M A VICTIM AND I CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT BITCH ABOUT IT!!!" I just don't understand why anarchists underplay practicality when those "straight suits" are effecting much more change in our society than any amount of brick throwing.

yr assumptions about what I do, and what others do is amazing.
Moar importantly:

You're a hypocrite if you think people aren't being effective when they're trying to be constructive.

If you wish to do something constructive do you consider if the ways in which you act are being effective? Does merely having the right intentions automatically translate into effective results? Do we need to consider what we wish to achieve and from there formulate ways to act effectively? Are such questions 'hypocritical'?

The OP, and a common attitude in anachism, is saying "things are getting really shitty, WHEN WILL SOMEONE BOMB THE WHITEHOUSE!?! I'M A VICTIM AND I CAN'T DO ANYTHING BUT BITCH ABOUT IT!!!" I just don't understand why anarchists underplay practicality when those "straight suits" are effecting much more change in our society than any amount of brick throwing.

Firstly, most people here have kinda said the OP was a bit daft. yr assertion that this is a common attitude in anarchism is rather dodgy.
Secondly, yr assertion that 'straight suits' are effecting much more change than any amount of brick throwing is, at best, pure speculation. How do you determine that? Would we need to outline such things as 'what sort of change do we wish to see'? Then, 'how often these changes occur'? At base, the 'change I wish to see' is social revolution, of which, obviously, 'straight suit' reformist politics is, by definition, incapable of enacting.

Maybe australia is an orwellian no man's land and no good has ever come of anything. I don't know, I'm not very familiar with everything that happens there. The US gets a bad rep around the world for being one of the most draconian, and yet I can be optimistic and see differences being made. More likely, you're stuck in a victim's state of mind and surround yourself with exclusively bad news. The fact that that "charity" is the largest, again, does not change the validity of my original statement, because I did not advocate working for anyone in particular. Irrelevant. Do some research, find an organization that is reputable. Come on now, this shouldn't be too hard to understand. You didn't answer my question: DOES EVERY NONPROFIT HAVE BLOOD ON ITS HANDS?

The point is not merely the size, but the system of welfare provision in Australia whereby the 'respectable NGOs' you argue people should join act not to help those in poverty, but to discipline them. More generally, the question of whether "ALL NONPROFITS ARE EVILZ" is not quite the correct one; instead one should be asking if they are capable of achieving their aims to 'make poverty history'.

If you think it's speculative that the right wing WOULDN'T be doing things worse then you are completely out of touch with how these parties work. I don't blame you. Many people that feel disenfranchised write it off completely and as a result they don't know much about the innerworkings of a very complicated system. Dems and Reps are not kicking back brews together. It's easy to write this off as a one-dimensional process, but it's not. Far from it. I don't have time to explain this to you, but both parties have seperate agendas and the right wing is notably more insidious, as evidenced by the fact that Obama passes fucked legislation writted up by the right and to appease the Right Majority in the House. The Dems are in support of many things the right are outspokenly against. Did you forget that? Obama is putting putting more emphasis on renewable energy, green jobs, environmental and health standards than ever before. How can you not see this is an ENORMOUS deal? I shouldn't have to bring up birth control and gay marrage again.

Uh yeah it does matter, because you're sitting here and underplaying the efforts of highly intellgent and motivated people, dismissing the legimate impacts they are having for your benefit as frivolous wastes of time.

I bow down to my intellectual overlords. I am eternally grateful for their selfless paternalism. I'm sorry if I erred, it was merely my ignorance of the benefits they forever deliver. O sweet shepherds, forgive thee!

[Nihilist84]

dam butcher u can always make me laugh
anywho as i dont know how to create a new thread ill ask my question hear I live in amerikkka south central los angeles to be exact and im wondering how can i go about to educate the peeplz here about anarchy and other happenings in the world, cuz with all the religious peepz spreadin ther shit and also wen most sheeple look at me they say a dangerous "criminal" idk how i can go about talkin to them plus im very shy so if anyone can share sum ideas i would very much apreciate it im also thinkin of makin like pamphlets or sumthing

[blackenedbrad]

The most lethal weapon one could provide the people with: Education. Teach them how to grow their own food. Teach them natural ways to combat sickness. Teach them sustainable living. Educate them. THAT'S how you make change. Blowing buildings up and killing people, at least to me, seems counter-productive. How the fuck are you changing things? Killing people? What does that solve? Isn't it funny that you point out how bad war and famine is, yet you want to solve it by killing MORE people? That's backwards logic at it's best. If people learn how to live on their own, then there's no need for government, or states. We should educate them, not "join us or die," that sounds an awful lot like fascism to me.

[JesusCrust]

The most lethal weapon one could provide the people with: Education. Teach them how to grow their own food. Teach them natural ways to combat sickness. Teach them sustainable living. Educate them. THAT'S how you make change. Blowing buildings up and killing people, at least to me, seems counter-productive. How the fuck are you changing things? Killing people? What does that solve? Isn't it funny that you point out how bad war and famine is, yet you want to solve it by killing MORE people? That's backwards logic at it's best. If people learn how to live on their own, then there's no need for government, or states. We should educate them, not "join us or die," that sounds an awful lot like fascism to me.

Sounds like you're describing communists. Sure anarchists engage in "violent" acts. (depending on the individuals definition of violence) but typically anarchists go for structural damage, and oppressive institutions.
Communists have more of the mentality of, "join us or die." They'd pretty much demolish anything in their path under the guise of communism. As far as anarchists killing innocent people? Ludicrous. Maybe assaults on police, CEOs and government figures, but we already know why the cops, bosses, and politicians all suck.

[blackenedbrad]

Sounds like you're describing communists. Sure anarchists engage in "violent" acts. (depending on the individuals definition of violence) but typically anarchists go for structural damage, and oppressive institutions.
Communists have more of the mentality of, "join us or die." They'd pretty much demolish anything in their path under the guise of communism. As far as anarchists killing innocent people? Ludicrous. Maybe assaults on police, CEOs and government figures, but we already know why the cops, bosses, and politicians all suck.

I'll concede that it IS an attitude that is more common in communism, but there are plenty of "anarchists" that just want to fuck shit up. I definitely understand that these individuals are misguided in what they consider Anarchism to be. Of course, I could just be talking out of my ass, in which case, carry on.

[Bentheanarchist]

Sounds like you're describing communists. Sure anarchists engage in "violent" acts. (depending on the individuals definition of violence) but typically anarchists go for structural damage, and oppressive institutions.
Communists have more of the mentality of, "join us or die." They'd pretty much demolish anything in their path under the guise of communism. As far as anarchists killing innocent people? Ludicrous. Maybe assaults on police, CEOs and government figures, but we already know why the cops, bosses, and politicians all suck.

I'll concede that it IS an attitude that is more common in communism, but there are plenty of "anarchists" that just want to fuck shit up. I definitely understand that these individuals are misguided in what they consider Anarchism to be. Of course, I could just be talking out of my ass, in which case, carry on.

Oh my god its the evil anarchists! They are gonna bomb my house! lol! pacifist non-violent activists.

[blackenedbrad]

I'm hardly a pacifist, but I do think bombing shit is a fucking moronic way of dealing with people. You're anti-war, but then you condone violence.

[punkmar77]

Many of the more outspokenly aggressive/cementheaded anarchists I know either have no job or a shitty one. Again with the victim complexes.

Go fuck yourself with your assumptions...liberal dribble.

But I do have a problem with people that are constantly negative and criticize other people's good intentions when they themselves aren't doing a fucking thing but being a waste of life.

Assume much? Bye bye troll...

[Bentheanarchist]

I'm hardly a pacifist, but I do think bombing shit is a fucking moronic way of dealing with people. You're anti-war, but then you condone violence.

Listen i am not non-violent. I declare war on the unjust institutions of capital. I want to kill the government. I am at war with the government and the state like all anarchists are. I believe in class war and that is an actual war. I dont believe in unjust wars created by capital.

[blackenedbrad]

Listen i am not non-violent. I declare war on the unjust institutions of capital. I want to kill the government. I am at war with the government and the state like all anarchists are. I believe in class war and that is an actual war. I dont believe in unjust wars created by capital.

Fair enough,we have common goals, just different means to achieve them. I suppose, truly, if it came down to it, I'd take up arms against the Government, but I don't believe that should be the go to answer for dealing with what is VERY much a problem. I believe setting up your own system is the best way to beat THE system. They tell you what to eat, grow your own food. They tell you what to watch, destroy your tv. They tell you what to listen to, write your own music, or support independent musicians. They've set us up for failure, don't play by their rules. I'm pretty much in the dark when it comes to what Anarchism is all about, I've read things, but haven't really delved much into what it means, and what I have in common with it. I probably shouldn't even be discussing this until I'm further educated on it, but fuck it, thought I'd throw my opinion in there.

[apples&onions]

Uh oh... poor blackenedbrad...

[blackenedbrad]

Whatchu talkin' bout Willis?

[@narcho-Skinhooligan]

DAMN THAT OLLIE WAS THE SHIZZ-NITZZ!!!
I doubt ANY Republican can ollie that high!! Check that shit out! The motherfucker is stoked!!
He is on his way to kick some Recession ass!!!..... Or bail out another big bank or big business, which ever one comes first....

[JesusCrust]

Listen i am not non-violent. I declare war on the unjust institutions of capital. I want to kill the government. I am at war with the government and the state like all anarchists are. I believe in class war and that is an actual war. I dont believe in unjust wars created by capital.

Fair enough,we have common goals, just different means to achieve them. I suppose, truly, if it came down to it, I'd take up arms against the Government, but I don't believe that should be the go to answer for dealing with what is VERY much a problem. I believe setting up your own system is the best way to beat THE system. They tell you what to eat, grow your own food. They tell you what to watch, destroy your tv. They tell you what to listen to, write your own music, or support independent musicians. They've set us up for failure, don't play by their rules. I'm pretty much in the dark when it comes to what Anarchism is all about, I've read things, but haven't really delved much into what it means, and what I have in common with it. I probably shouldn't even be discussing this until I'm further educated on it, but fuck it, thought I'd throw my opinion in there.

One means can't do much without the other. If all we are is reactionary, and confrontational, we have no fall back, and no prefigurated society to show as an example of how to live. If all we do is set up communes, and collectives, and the state comes in to shut it down, and no one fights back, then that's useless. We need to both attack and defend against oppressive institutions with whatever militant or not tactics we can conjur, but in the mean time, between black bloc-ing and other confrontational aspects, we need to be setting up co-ops. collectives, organizing the community, guerilla gardening, creating communes, holding teach-ins and info/work shops. We need to set up free institutions in the shell of the old so we have something to go to after we destroy the current oppressive institutions.

[butcher]

DAMN THAT OLLIE WAS THE SHIZZ-NITZZ!!!
I doubt ANY Republican can ollie that high!! Check that shit out! The motherfucker is stoked!!
He is on his way to kick some Recession ass!!!..... Or bail out another big bank or big business, which ever one comes first....

i had another copy of that photo, but in it he was ollie-ing over a great white shark, what a hardarse! He dances better than Ellen too!!!

[@narcho-Skinhooligan]

DAMN THAT OLLIE WAS THE SHIZZ-NITZZ!!!
I doubt ANY Republican can ollie that high!! Check that shit out! The motherfucker is stoked!!
He is on his way to kick some Recession ass!!!..... Or bail out another big bank or big business, which ever one comes first....

i had another copy of that photo, but in it he was ollie-ing over a great white shark, what a hardarse! He dances better than Ellen too!!!

HAHAHA TOO TOO FUNNY MY FRIEND!!

[Bentheanarchist]

DAMN THAT OLLIE WAS THE SHIZZ-NITZZ!!!
I doubt ANY Republican can ollie that high!! Check that shit out! The motherfucker is stoked!!
He is on his way to kick some Recession ass!!!..... Or bail out another big bank or big business, which ever one comes first....

LOL! He's gonna kick some civilian ass with his drones!

[@narcho-Skinhooligan]

DAMN THAT OLLIE WAS THE SHIZZ-NITZZ!!!
I doubt ANY Republican can ollie that high!! Check that shit out! The motherfucker is stoked!!
He is on his way to kick some Recession ass!!!..... Or bail out another big bank or big business, which ever one comes first....

LOL! He's gonna kick some civilian ass with his drones!

SHIT! I hope not!!!