Occupy Wall St. (support/debate)

[apples&onions]

1: "read some history"
2: Immortal Technique is a homophobe
3: You're so madly in love with crazy captain caveman, I just thought you might share some of the same beliefs as him...you just want other people to do the murdering and bombing for you, I see now
4: Get off the computer. Eat some dirt.

Fuck you and your incredibly disrespectful way of communicating.

As far as Immortal Technique goes, I kind of doubt it, but hey I don't even know the guy. And even so, DON"T CONFLATE THE MESSAGE WITH THE MESSENGER, YOU FUCKING DUMBASS... THE LEADER = THE STATE? SOUND FAMILIAR???

3. There is so much bullshit here I am not even gonna touch it. Just, what the fuck are you talking about, trying to express or trying to accomplish???

Use of technology does not = complicity. Technology is all pervasive. I just said I am against revolution. I am an individualist... WHY THE FUCK WOULD I, WHAT WAS IT??? " want other people to do the murdering and bombing for you"... Dude... just stop... ALLOW FOR ALTERNATIVE EXISTANCE.

I really think you would get along well on PIX board.


I want to create autonomous zones and learn how to live sustainably in healthy community. People are interchangable parts, as great as it must feel to hold civilizers and technocrats accountable for their atrocities, it doesn't really serve any tactical purpose.

[Cascadian]

I really think you would get along well on PIX board.

there it is again! I don't know what "PIX board" is but I feel like it's the last place you got laughed out of before coming here

And I suggest you use better judgement when you're choosing your idols

[apples&onions]

It is. But the community there is incredibly dysfunctional and hypocritical. They persistantly attacked me and eventually banned me essentially for holding unpopular opinion and just cause they didn't like me. Can you say liberal tendencies??? Feel free to check it out. I got nothing against you man, I'm just joking around. Just stop communicating so incredibly disrespectfully. Anarchist? Idols? Stop talking out of you ass!

[Cascadian]

They persistantly attacked me

I wonder why they would do something like that

[apples&onions]

Because I made a sexist faux pas initially, like 3 months ago: I said that I would be wary about having sex with an oogle girl in regards to issues of personal health. I made the statement in jest, but I understand that that is no excuse. I made formal apology and thought my way through the entire ordeal critically and looked at it as a learning experience like I would anything else. However for this they persistently mocked me. Subsequently they made numerous and persistent attacks on my personality and even my person hood. It never once felt like a "safe" community to me. I am glad I am gone from there. That community has deep rooted serious problems that go beyond anything I directly experienced myself. They are the kind of people that are just "to cool". They have a bad history of shit talking anyone who is essentially "too real". They are disrespectful, mean, judgemental, elitist, and they refuse to look at themselves as a community... it is pretty damn sad, because I used to really respect this community. But if someone doesn't particularily jive with their relatively narrow world view or is to radical (like for example, travelers, they ridicule travelers to no end, I am sure they would do the same thing to squatters) they tend to just trash them under the guise of being a welcoming safe respectful community. It is total bullshit... they are fuckin hipsters. Just let it be known that this is just the PIX board community, not the greater Plan It X community... They are rude and sarcastic to no ends... Jer is a straight fascist.. that dude who thinks punkmarr's a fascist? Go check out Jer... and essentially all the other mods as well. It is essentially a feel good good old boys club. There was never any intelligent debate, just cutesy self referential insular community animal gifs bullshit... I know I am not the only person who thinks this, I got confirmation from another current poster and they have just trashed and chased away so many people. However this is not to say that all the individuals who post there are full of shit, far from it. As I said before I am glad I got the boot, it lends some credibility to my name I think. I don't want any part of their bullshit fake anarchy. I really, really hope that this really good functional community never ever becomes anything like that fucked up place. The thing is that it is kind of a place that would in the words of T.K. attract alot of liberally minded people and people with liberal tendencies. Real anarchists need to split from these types of movements. I will reiterate that I am NOT talking about Plan it X or the greater PIX community, just the fucked up board. Most of all they are just disrespectful and purposefully obscure communication. That's all I was saying about you... you are not being respectful. Get your act together. Be respectful. Allow for alternative existence and for perspectives outside your own. I don't have beliefs, none of my ideas are rigid. Your ideas should not be either. It's all good dude, just respect.

More on PIX board, this is a pm from this dude Ryan from New York, he posts there under accidentprone:

"i've always liked you. since the beginning. i never had any problem with you. i hate to see how fucking nasty and cruel they are to you so i really don't see why you keep posting. they did that to me once when i first started so i just deleted that account and started over. i didn't tell em it was me, i just started fresh. they are so biased and so insane and such an unruly mob that even if you don't say anything fucked up or "stupid" or "ignorant" or whatever they are calling it even though they say things a million times more fucked up and stupid and ignorant they will always critique your every post. no matter what you say, someone will say some snide remark and start talking shit. for real man, they are some of the most closed minded, fucked up communities i've ever met. people never grow outta the high school mentality. they all act like jocks or cool kids making fun of the unpopular kids. they see other people do it and everyone jumps on the bandwagon. it's pretty disgusting and shows me a lot about humanity. i don't know why the fuck i post. i guess it's because i've done it for years and it's a habit and i find it sorta entertaining at times. it's a way to pass the time. that's about it. they're all dicks."

[Danarchy]

I have always felt that Occupy should be used as a vehicle to communicate and educate from an anarchist perspective, that it was capable of being an umbrella group for diverse organizations and individuals but it was not an anarchist movement rather a social uprising against the current status quo. I fully support the creation of an Anarchist organization for the development of communication, dissemination of information, coordination of tactics, etc but I only support long term constructive aims. Though some may feel that I dismiss the immediate solidarity of protests, it is not so, I only question what is being done beyond the immediate. Do not brag to me about the recent BB battle on the streets if you haven't established or are not working towards personal self sufficiency.

Oh for what would you do dear anarchists after 'the revolution' to feed yourselves if not enslave farmers and bind us to your theories. Get involved in the alternative economy, get involved in the development of the real rather than the arbitrary and essentially irrelevant. Occupy has show what was obvious from the start, without a conscious effort to educate and build prior to the development of a social revolt, the revolt will end without concrete improvements only liberal 'gains' to appease the masses back to subordination.

Cooperate with Occupy as the FAI did within the CNT or as many Anarchists do within mainstream Unions but form an FAI type organization so that our collective strength can be developed and our cooperation between the Occupy camps can have a greater influence.

Fuck Militancy, Fuck Pacifism; develop strategy without limits provided they achieve practical goals.

[Wide-Eyed Sluggard]

Any change in our direction would take a very long time, but I refuse to believe it isn't possible. All it'll take is enough anger, enough communication, and the requisite balls. It probably won't happen in my lifetime, but that's a stupid and lazy reason not to fight for it.

[Wide-Eyed Sluggard]

Fuck Militancy, Fuck Pacifism; develop strategy without limits provided they achieve practical goals.

That, right there, is the core of what will make this happen one way or another. Well said.

[apples&onions]

Great post as always Danarchy!

[punkmar77]

dream on,you will never find people (in greater mass) that are ready for such ideology.

[THEBLACKNOVA]

Occupy Everything: Anarchists in the Occupy Movement, 2009-2011



From Asheville FM

This week's show features a conversation with Aragorn! Aragorn is an author based out of the Bay Area who is responsible for numerous essays on anarchism, nihilism and indigeneity; was an editor on Green Anarchy and Anarchy: a Journal of Desire Armed, and currently helps to publish The Anvil Review. More recently, Aragorn hass been working with Ardent Press and edited a compilation on anarchism and the occupy movement entitled "Occupy Everything", available from Little Black Cart. I spoke with Aragorn earlier this week about the book and about anarchism in occupy related projects of the past and future around the world.

Streamable or Downloadable at:
http://archive.org/details/occupyEveryt ... ithAragorn

[apples&onions]

That looks interesting.

[THEBLACKNOVA]

Yup it is, you should listen to the interview and if you can get a copy of the book one way or another

[THEBLACKNOVA]

Hey i just found this also:

Cindy Milstein - Anarchism and the Occupy Movement

Talk by Cindy Milstein, author of "Anarchism and Its Aspirations" on "Anarchism and the Occupy Movement" given February 23, 2012 at Gowen Hall, University of Washington, Seattle, WA

[mymarkx]

The part at the end about questioning ourselves more than we've ever questioned ourselves is hysterical, given that everything Cindy says is in the feminine intonation of a question, never a statement. The part about a general strike not being relevant to people who are already unemployed was good too.

As for the powers that be moving in faster than expected, I expected it, and unlike Cindy, I saw it happen every step of the way. All the other, less well-funded groups were mentioned, but not the Democrats, and they're the ones who saw that if they controlled the GAs, they'd control Occupy. In San Diego they set about controlling the agenda, but they also have the numbers to outvote anyone else, so they focused on modifying consensus to majority rule.

The part about the nonviolent people being violent, in my opinion, was also intentionally induced by the current power system. If capitalism and the police are not the enemy, then there's no common enemy to unite people.

As for the guy who insists Occupy stay nonpolitical but is running for office, I think Cindy's wrong. A typical political operative knows that they have to have some kind of bait to draw people in before they can set the hook. Most of the biggest and best-funded Democratic Party websites, for example, pretend to be liberal and progressive and welcome all viewpoints. Of course whenever there's an election coming up they have big purges and ban everyone who criticizes Democrats. But many people will already have begun to think of that as their community and become Democrats because their "friends" are and they don't want to lose their "friends." Political operatives use Occupy as the bait to draw people into politics as usual, so they need Occupy to stay ostensibly nonpolitical, while they certainly won't dissuade Occupiers from voting for them.

Occupy has also been useful to the system because it allowed Homeland Security to identify dissidents and dissident sympathizers. Now that there's been a full-fledged military coup in Egypt, the Egyptian protesters who voted have come to understand the problem and want a real revolution this time. But between the beginning of the Tahrir uprising and now, the Egyptian military junta has identified every single Egyptian dissident or dissident sympathizer they haven't already killed (about a thousand people) or imprisoned (at least fifteen thousand people), so they can easily be rounded up even if they don't gather in Tahrir to make themselves an easy target.

There are now more than 60 drone bases in the US. Drones from each base can cover a large area. There are some unknown people in Egypt who keep blowing up the gas pipeline to Israel. Pakistanis keep blowing up NATO's oil tanker trucks at the Khyber Pass. Some folks in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and elsewhere, have learned how to shoot down US drones. Wouldn't it be great if people could jam the drones' electronics? Is there an app for that?

[THEBLACKNOVA]

All the other, less well-funded groups were mentioned, but not the Democrats, and they're the ones who saw that if they controlled the GAs, they'd control Occupy. In San Diego they set about controlling the agenda, but they also have the numbers to outvote anyone else, so they focused on modifying consensus to majority rule.

Is that when the GA's focused on the same proposal for days and days and they were talking about the NEW YORK Model? I thought that was 90% or 95% rule? I remember saying to my friends and anyone that would listen: If we are gonna be talking about NEW YORK Models we should be talking to Mick Jagger or the The Velvet Underground!

When was it changed to majority rule? is that when it split into 2 occupys? and the only ones left at the original spot were democrats/liberals and people that belonged to the International Socialist Organization (who aren't very social if you ask me) and at one point were bring up the idea of electing a leader, and people were like no! we are all leaders!

Did they stop you? from doing anything you wanted to do? or organize?

mymarkx Do you think the Government is getting ready for a dirty war on its own people? Im talking like an open one when white dissidents start to get picked off one by one and killed? Like other governments in other countrys have done to get rid of the dissents to neo liberal policies? Like in argentina? And if so when do you see this coming? Or has it started all ready?

I think a lot of seeds were planted at occupy, on how to organize and tactics that can be used: SELF ORGANIZE, DIRECT DEMOCRACY, HORIZONTALISM, DIRECT ACTION, AUTONOMOUS, LEADERLESS, NON HIERARCHICAL, and yes even BLACK BLOC tactics

A lot of people got radicalized!

I think the liberals have gone back home and are probably getting ready for the coming presidential election.

I think the neo liberal policies and there effects on the population in the most simple terms: The rich getting richer, the middle class disappearing and the poor getting poorer is not gonna stop no matter who you vote for, and in a year or two we will start to see it and feel it again rising up? In what way or how i dont know.

Are you still going to SD Occupy meetings mymarkx?

[mymarkx]

You're right, they went to 90% rule--they were terrified of anarchists blocking things, but no anarchist I know of ever had. The ones who blocked things were the Democrats themselves, trying to prove the need for 90% instead of consensus.

They didn't stop me from giving a few teach-ins, but the stuff they wanted to promote always got better time slots and more publicity.

Yes, I think the US gov't has already started a dirty war here, the same way it taught its puppets to do in Argentina, Egypt, and many other countries. Since these dirty wars always target dissidents and people of color, liberals retain their faith in the neoliberal gov't doing it and their best response is to petition the gov't itself to stop--this even when the gov't tells them repeatedly that it does not allow public opinion to influence policy decisions.

Yes, many seeds were planted at OccupySD and many people were radicalized. I hadn't even self-identified as an anarchist until I met Mar and started doing my homework. But I don't go to Occupy any more. I use the Occupy Cafe website when I feel a need to clarify or shine some light on a specific problem, and then Tweet the link to Occupiers in other parts of the country. Right now my Twitter focus is mostly on Syria and Egypt and I like being able to interact with people all over the world. I'm very impatient on Twitter (as I am in real life), so I just block idiots instead of trying to educate them. For me, being old just means outliving other people, often because they wouldn't listen to me, and it isn't fun, so I try to avoid people who don't know and can't learn. There were many anarchists at OccupySD I'd like to know better and learn from, but the Democratic Party operatives and people I suspect of being feds or Mossad always showed up and I'd leave.

After the election the political operatives will allow more latitude in order to draw more people in, but they always use their money and numbers to control. I don't know if Canvass 4 a Cause is connected with the global Otpur Canvass responsible for the color "revolutions" that help NATO, but they're extremely well organized and ruthless statists. I think I went to Children's Park twice (not during GAs) since then, but the day I found myself alone at Civic Center Plaza, surrounded by hordes of Democrats, Greens, Ron Paul people, and Canvass 4 a Cause organizers, all fervently registering voters in the name of Occupy, was my last day. Later on, reading about how Women Occupy had the brazen audacity to talk about the Suffragettes on the spot where Emma Goldman had warned people not to vote a hundred years earlier, with the Democrats pretending to be the Wobblies instead of the vigilantes they really are, I felt it was hopeless.

I know there are good people keeping good things going here, like the anarchists and Occupy Garden, but I don't think my physical presence could accomplish anything. I've been trying to keep up with what's going on at Occupy Oakland, which adopted diversity of tactics and has Fuck the Police marches, but Bella Eiko decided to run for City Council, Oakland Elle went to the anti-NATO protest in Chicago to help out as a street medic and was so angry at seeing pro-Assad signs that she wanted to hit people (being anti-Assad with regard to Syria is being pro-NATO), and mostly they're just appealing for money for bail funds and travel expenses. The Lakeview school sit-in has been relatively successful so far, but that would have happened (maybe not as successfully) without Occupy.

As I see it, Occupy is basically a reformist, not a revolutionary movement, and therefore counterrevolutionary. I could be wrong.

[Bentheanarchist]

You're right, they went to 90% rule--they were terrified of anarchists blocking things, but no anarchist I know of ever had. The ones who blocked things were the Democrats themselves, trying to prove the need for 90% instead of consensus.

They didn't stop me from giving a few teach-ins, but the stuff they wanted to promote always got better time slots and more publicity.

Yes, I think the US gov't has already started a dirty war here, the same way it taught its puppets to do in Argentina, Egypt, and many other countries. Since these dirty wars always target dissidents and people of color, liberals retain their faith in the neoliberal gov't doing it and their best response is to petition the gov't itself to stop--this even when the gov't tells them repeatedly that it does not allow public opinion to influence policy decisions.

Yes, many seeds were planted at OccupySD and many people were radicalized. I hadn't even self-identified as an anarchist until I met Mar and started doing my homework. But I don't go to Occupy any more. I use the Occupy Cafe website when I feel a need to clarify or shine some light on a specific problem, and then Tweet the link to Occupiers in other parts of the country. Right now my Twitter focus is mostly on Syria and Egypt and I like being able to interact with people all over the world. I'm very impatient on Twitter (as I am in real life), so I just block idiots instead of trying to educate them. For me, being old just means outliving other people, often because they wouldn't listen to me, and it isn't fun, so I try to avoid people who don't know and can't learn. There were many anarchists at OccupySD I'd like to know better and learn from, but the Democratic Party operatives and people I suspect of being feds or Mossad always showed up and I'd leave.

After the election the political operatives will allow more latitude in order to draw more people in, but they always use their money and numbers to control. I don't know if Canvass 4 a Cause is connected with the global Otpur Canvass responsible for the color "revolutions" that help NATO, but they're extremely well organized and ruthless statists. I think I went to Children's Park twice (not during GAs) since then, but the day I found myself alone at Civic Center Plaza, surrounded by hordes of Democrats, Greens, Ron Paul people, and Canvass 4 a Cause organizers, all fervently registering voters in the name of Occupy, was my last day. Later on, reading about how Women Occupy had the brazen audacity to talk about the Suffragettes on the spot where Emma Goldman had warned people not to vote a hundred years earlier, with the Democrats pretending to be the Wobblies instead of the vigilantes they really are, I felt it was hopeless.

I know there are good people keeping good things going here, like the anarchists and Occupy Garden, but I don't think my physical presence could accomplish anything. I've been trying to keep up with what's going on at Occupy Oakland, which adopted diversity of tactics and has Fuck the Police marches, but Bella Eiko decided to run for City Council, Oakland Elle went to the anti-NATO protest in Chicago to help out as a street medic and was so angry at seeing pro-Assad signs that she wanted to hit people (being anti-Assad with regard to Syria is being pro-NATO), and mostly they're just appealing for money for bail funds and travel expenses. The Lakeview school sit-in has been relatively successful so far, but that would have happened (maybe not as successfully) without Occupy.

As I see it, Occupy is basically a reformist, not a revolutionary movement, and therefore counterrevolutionary. I could be wrong.

good post!

[Bentheanarchist]

Occupy are just a bunch of middle class, white, liberal students who treat the homeless bad.

What percentage of them have you interacted with. Or did you just pull your generalizations out of your self righteous ass?

The only ones i met at occup fort worth which is now deseased.

[JesusCrust]

As I see it, Occupy is basically a reformist, not a revolutionary movement, and therefore counterrevolutionary. I could be wrong.

http://anarcho-punk.net/viewtopic.php?f ... ive#p60055