Veganism

[Bakica]

The thing is, cats and dogs HAVE to eat meat. We humans are lucky enough to have a choice.

They do ? I've heard of special veggie diets for pets, or am i wrong ?

[CrustAndSkin]

I ain't becoming a vegan until my dog dies. Buying dog food made out of animal products is just not right if you are a vegan.

[Joe Bastard]

I've never heard of veggie dog or cat diets. Surely they can only digest meat, otherwise they'd be omnivores like humans?

[Danarchy]

Veganism is one of the best possible ethical treatment to animals. Personally, I'm a vegetarian(since I'm only 15 doctors say I'm too young to become a vegan) but I can guarantee you won't have any health problem if you follow a vegan diet after 18. I can't see a single drawback for eating or supporting animal cruelty.

My children (3 and 8) are vegetarian and have been their entire lives. The decision to eat meat remains a personal choice for them and I wish to provide them with the opportunity to have never eaten meat. Your 'Doctors' are full of shit.

The thing is, cats and dogs HAVE to eat meat. We humans are lucky enough to have a choice.

Dogs are Omnivores, Cats are Carnivores. You can feed a dog a vegetarian/ vegan diet but they are likely to have digestive problems. Personally, I believe this is irresponsible but I do not keep animals as 'pets' they either work in one way or another providing for the community or they belong wild in nature. The cats that I have are feral and rescued from irresponsible urbanites while the dogs are trained to protect our livestock from predators, our property from theives (protection of community resources is an important and under discussed topic, I can't afford to replace things that 'walk away' and several things have) as well as being very efficient 'mousers' even better than the cats who seem to prefer birds.

[nclpw]

Yeah well I can understand the bullshit doctors, I mean you have to be very aware over what you eat to be sure you get all the shit you need. A 15 year old is still growing after all.
I`m not saying you need meat, you just have to be careful.

[Joe Bastard]

Well then is it fair to make a moral decision on behalf of an animal?

One of the arguments against beastiality is that they can't give informed consent, does that stretch to their diet too? Hey, should a vegan even keep pets? I don't really have an opinion on this.

[Cascadian]

Danarchy: Post a picture of your farm

[Danarchy]

We have a website: http://www.notchillorganic.ca with several pictures of the farm and outbuildings. We are working on a photo album for the facebook group we've started as well as uploading a few files about the operation of the Co-op, but my account is "temporarily unavailable", it's under Sudo Organic Farm Cooperative. I'm also pretty silicone ignorant and don't really know how to upload pic's from my computer to this site. Tips anyone?

[punkmar77]

Yeah Dan one of the easiest ways, if you already have them published to fascistbook is to just right click on the picture and copy the image location then post here between the "Img" brackets available at the top of each new post a reply...just paste the link, highlight it, and push the 'Img' button...If you don't have the pics published to fuckbook...then open a free photobucket account, upload the pictures there, copy the links and post here the same way as above... would really love to see your farm as I grew up on a ranch in Mex. and pops is trying to grow grape for wine now...Also I tried your link but my browser says it can't be found?

[Danarchy]

Yep, I keep forgetting that second 'h' http://www.notchhillorganic.ca

I can't find my camera at the moment, but i'll be updating the crackbook site as soon as I do. In the mean time we're going to continue to post 2011 pictures. I'll try to get some bigger field shots for you Punkmar, but I still wouldn't consider our place to be of 'ranch' size, round here that means at least a section and we're 40 acres less than a quarter.

[apples&onions]

Damn, Danarchy. That's your farm? I want to work/live there! Very fucking nice!

[Cascadian]

then open a free photobucket account,

don't you mean "phuckitbucket"?

Nice farm danarchy, how did you land a gig that sweet? Is it easy to get into that sort of stuff in BC?

[Danarchy]

I am moving this discussion Re: the cooperative, my farm to a new thread as we are getting seriously off topic.

[BrotherWarrior]

bottom line, if you consume meat or dairy in this country, you are contributing to the very thing we as anarchists are trying to abolish. Saying you are too lazy and dont give a fuck is really sad to me. How can you stand up for something that means freedom yet enslave so many? i dont understand...

[Danarchy]

BrotherWarrior, so nice of you to decree a bottom line for us, and what country are you from there are people from many countries on this site.

If you do not consume food produced by small independant organic farmers, no matter what you eat supports the industrial agricultural machine. If all you choose to eat is a vegan diet as I assume that you do, how exactly do the farmers fertilize their fields? Do they us petrochemical derived fertilizer or composted MANURE?

Unless you are only producing food for yourself and all of the byproduct of your food is returned to the soil, including humanure then you have an open farm/ production system that by its very function depletes nature and the micronutrient storage of the soil. What you end up with can be seen in many of the areas that have been cultivated by humans for thousands of years, the fertile crescent for example whose productive capacity is well documented in many ancient texts is now a barren waste. Whether you are vegan or not is a personal choice.

No matter what you eat the choice is to support a farm that ethically raises animals contributing manure to sustain the health of soil or petrochemical fertilisers which would you prefer? Or do you have another magical option for soil fertility that no farmer has ever heard of?

I am in full agreement about the lazy or careless attitudes. The food you eat is as important as the air you breathe.

[apples&onions]

bottom line, if you consume meat or dairy in this country, you are contributing to the very thing we as anarchists are trying to abolish. Saying you are too lazy and dont give a fuck is really sad to me. How can you stand up for something that means freedom yet enslave so many? i dont understand...

Fuck off!!! Dietary decisions are nothing but personal and in no qualitative way affect any widespread change. You are fucking blind. Ideally would you have all not eat meat? That's racist, classist, culturalist, imperialistic, speciesist and just some complete utopian bullshit. What would a vegan world look like? Civilized, green, liberal, post modern, non egalitarian. How big is the population? If it is comparable to that of now, then how would everybody be fed (I am not implying that they are now), who would do the agricultural work, what would transport of food and food production in general look like? All massively regulated, massively reliant on totalitarian agriculture... the earth cannot even continue to support agriculture as it is. Fuck that shit. Fuck a utopia. It wouldn't be anarchistic, that's for sure.

I am a permaculturalist/rewildist, give me more of where you are coming from and what the fuck you are talking about. But regardless, you just started posting. Don't come in here making definitive statements like that... geez.

[BrotherWarrior]

You couldnt be more wrong.being vegan is way more than just a "dietary" decision. It stands for so much more than that. The point of veganism is to end the suffering of human and non human animals. animal agriculture is one of the biggest contributors to global warming,climate change, extreme pollution. It is the largest sectoral source for water pollution,and is a key component in land degredation. This is just a slice off the top of what animal agriculture in this country does. Not to mention all of the health risks involved with consuming antibiotics and hormones that are given to the animals to grow at unnatural rates to speed up production.the animals are fed these drugs and by eating these animals we in turn ingest them as well. It's sad and really really disgusting the way the animals are treated. Abused, tortured, treated as commodities. And it turn its making humans sick..we spend billions annually on diet related surgeries ie open heart surgeries heart attacks, diabetes etc. So to me, by being vegan I am standing up to agro business and demanding it to change, even if its in a small way. But guess what, the vegan population has more than doubled in the past ten years, so by making a stand others will follow and change will happen. Also, i want to address your, how would everyone be fed question. it takes 16 pounds of feed(which is made up of corn,soy and grains) to produce only one pound of edible flesh. If we used this source more efficiently and fed it to humans instead of breeding animals to eat, we could solve world hunger. farmers in developing countries who have efficient plant based agriculture are being replaced by intensive livestock rearing. These farmers are being pushed out as a result. If more people were vegan we would be less reliant on government and this industry and more reliant on ourselves. More people need to grow their own food so we arent so dependent and it would make produce more affordable. big agro business forces independent organic farmers out making it less accessible and more expensive to eat fresh foods. If more people supported the small independent farmers, the demand would go up and these things would not be seen bourgeois.I dont want to eat fuckin GMO S and crazy ass chemicals. fuck that, its fucked how we think we have no control of this but we do, by demanding it. i dont trust a corporation or this government with my livelihood and especially not the food i eat, clearly the insurane industries BANK on all the sick americans. anyways, i didnt join this to fight, i joined in to find community.

[BrotherWarrior]

@danarchy I am speaking purely of the animal agriculture as it relates to the USA. I definitely have thought of this, I work in gardens and have talked with farmers about fertilization. There are other natural ways to fertilize. maneur is the best fertilizer, but it doesnt mean we have to exploit animals to get it. I am simply saying that what you eat, where it comes from and how it was raised is extremely important in abolishing so many issues, especially in the US.

[slother]

It doesn't matter how many vegans there are, as long as capitalism is around people will still mass produce meat and treat animals as products.

[BrotherWarrior]

@slother. unfortunately, you're right. All I know is I don't want that shit in my stomach.