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Feminism, porn and sex workers : not a contradiction. A new documentary

Discussion in 'General political debates' started by ungovernable, Jun 3, 2010.

  1. QueerPunk

    QueerPunk Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Fuckin oath!
     
  2. JackNegativity

    JackNegativity Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    This thread just got relevant again.

    If porn isn't considered sexist by anarcha-feminists, how are non-pornagraphic pics on a photo blog like PILTF exploitative? The pics are sent in by the photo subjects themselves most times, which even if you could validly call them pornographic would be considered exhibisionism. Is a woman's sexual freedom no longer a part of her overall freedom? Commercial porn can eat shit, and using a sexual image for capitalist gain needs to go. If someone likes to show of their body because thats what gets them off--that's nobody else's business.

    Now, PILTF had all of 2 sexual images on it. Out of 230 pages of pics. Hardly exploitative (aside from the stupid blog name), and it's kind of hypocritical that the person calling it so is also the person who started this thread. I agree with you on basically every issue, Ungov, but not this time. Finding someone's face aesthetically pleasing is not sexist.


    Fuck feminazi anti-sex rhetoric, sex-positive feminism is the only non-oppressive way to go.
     
  3. Veganarchy

    Veganarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Well, it seems like the PILF-toppic just got deleted before I could post my answer, so I'll post it here instead:



    Just a question of clearification: When you use the word "Sex object", what do you exactly mean then?

    I think there is a huge difference between being sexualy attracted to a person, and only seeing the person as an instrument for your sexual pleasure, instead of a person who is equal to you.

    The first think is a natural instinct, wich is something that almost everybody pocess, unless you are asexual (wich, of cause, is totally okay as well).

    The other thing is just straight up oppression. But it doesn't mean by definition, that it is sexist oppression.

    To me, sexisme is, when you base your powerstructure, oppression and hierachy on genders. Therefor I also think that the wold sexism can be confusing to people sometimes, because the word "Sex" both means "gender" and "making love" in english. in danish, we only have the word "køn" for sex/gender, wich makes it a bit more easy for people to understand.

    My point is, that sexual oppression in general is wrong, but don't always have to be sexistic. On the other hand, sexual oppression is often a part of sexism in practice, because it is a part of the partriacic system, build on oppressiv ideas of genderroles. A big part of theese genderroles are also lookism, so in order to fit into your genderrole, you have to look like the partriacic system wants your gender to look, in order to express your different sexuality, as either being a big, strong, macho man, or being a small, weak, feminine woman.

    So to be quite frank, I don't see that page as sexistic, since all kinds of genders, sexualities and bodyshapes are welcome.
     
  4. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    Being a sex worker to revendicate your right to use your body as you want is feminist. Exploiting this porn to see women as sexual objects would still be sexism.

    This stupid blog that kaaos posted to troll the forum is just some perverse people using women and men as sex objects, the name of the blog says it clearly PUNKS I'D LIKE TO FUCK i dont even understand how i have to explain why this is sexism and seeing people as sex objects, use your fucking brain guys. Also, the blog isn't feminists who want to revendicate the right to use their body the way they want, all of the girls on this website doesnt even know they're here, the text says it.

    If looking at a girl and saying "wow nice body i'd like to fuck you" is sexism, then taking the pic of a girl and putting it on a website saying you'd like to fuck here IS ALSO SEXISM

    Are you crazy ? Did you rerally see "ugly" girls on this page ? All of the pics posted looks like girls from a suicidegirl page

    Seriously, use your brain, it is easy to understand why promoting this website isn't welcomed on anarcho-punk.net.

    The thread hasn't been deleted to continue the debate here, so please don't troll this topic.
     
  5. Veganarchy

    Veganarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    First of all, "Use your brain" is a pretty shitty argument, based on a technocratic idea of the individual with the highes I.Q. alway being right (wich, in fact, is one of the main ideas in fascism)!!

    Second, I asked you a question, cause I really don't feel that you explained why you think it is sexism. Theese examples you mention, has nothing to do with sexism, in my eyes. Did you even read my post?

    The text on the page says clearly, that BOTH men and woman are welcome, and that ALL KINDS of men and woman are welcome. It also says, that if anybody find themselves in there, and don't want their pictures to be on the page, they can just get in touch, and the pic will then be taken down.

    I think that the reason why the majority of theese pictures shows people who lives up the the "standart of gender-roles" is, that pictures people share on the internet simply just reflects upon society in general.

    Think about it: How many people in here, who choose (like me), to use their own picture as an avatar, doesn't fit into the same lookist genderroles? I havent seen a single one, so far. So the reason why there are a lot "perfect" pictures, is simply because 99% of punk-pics on the internet is "perfect" (just try to google, if you don't believe me).

    Don't get me wrong, I think it's really important to react upon sexism whenever it shows it's ugly face, and if you find the page sexistic, and don't want it in here, then I can totally under stand why you deleted the topic, and I have absolutly respect for your dicissioun.

    I just don't agree with you, on your definition of sexism, because I think it's too narrow and simple.

    One of my friends, who is queerfeminist, also took a look at the page, and she couldn't point out anything sexistic about it.

    The reason why I am posting this, is because I feel that it is so god damn important that we have a clear definition on what sexism is, if we ever want to be able to destroy it. Right now, people have a lot of different oppinions on what it is (just think about the "hittin women" toppic), and if we keep shouting "sexism" everytime something related to sex (in the term of lovemaking, not gender) pops up, no one will take us serious anymore, cause then the word will simply lose it's meaning.

    I wasn't my intention to troll this toppic, but the other toppic got deleted while I was writing my post, and like I said, I really wanted to take part in this debate, cause it is something that I spend a lot of time and energy on at the moment, because I live together with a lot of queer-feminist people, and we're at the moment doing a lot of meetings, writings and workshops on sexism, genderroles and triple-oppression in general.

    But if you want to, we can start a new topic about Sexism in General, cause I would really like to discuss theese things with you on a serious lever, without being acused of trolling and not using my brain.

    peace, anarchy and equality
     
  6. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    oh here you go, now i am a fascist because i told you to use your brain hahahahah

    no it's not a shitty argument, because anyone who use his brain can understand why this sexist shit is unwelcomed here

    Yes i did. Not my fault if you can't understand the obvious.

    So what ? It's not sexist because they also use men as sex objects ?

    Oh ok, so it was probably an hallucination when i saw that 99% of the women are the classical stereotype of a sexy women : makeup, low weight, etc...

    Oh yeah right, so it's not sexism to use a woman as a sex object without authorisation, as long as she can remove her pic if she find it !

    It's not because the society is macho and sexist that you have to follow it.

    You definatly don't understand anything.

    And a few of my friends from a feminist group took a look at it and were totally disgusted.

    i'll keep shouting sexism everytime someone use womens as "objects they'd like to fuck". and i won't be the only one


    Seriously if you can't see what's wrong with this blog's name and how it turns women into sex objects i'm not even going to waste my time debating with you.
     
  7. Veganarchy

    Veganarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    No. I didn't call you a fascist. I just pointed out, that "I am right, you are wrong" is a statement, not an argument, and when you turn that logic into a leadership, it becomes fascism. I never disagreed on the fact that sexism is not welcome om AP, I simply disagreed on YOUR definition on sexism.

    Still waiting for an answer, that is not just "I am right, you are stupid and this page is sexist, because it features pictures of women and men, and the name referes to sexual attraction"

    Sexism is not about sexual attraction, it's about discriminating on the behalf of pre-fixed genderroles, set up to put either men (mostly) or women on top of the pyramid of power and control.

    No, your vision is clear, and I explain why I think it is like that futher down in my last post.

    You're putting words in my mouth now, so I don't need to comment on that one.

    No, but it's a fact that most pictures (even pictures of punks) uploaded on the internet, even on THIS page (is AP sexist too??), contains an overweight of "beautifull" people, so therefor the amount of pictures available is uneven, compared to the real life. And PILF is saying that ALL kinds of pictures are welcome, so you can't blame them for that fact. They don't choose the pictures, based in an lookistic idea of how women should look like, like Suicide Girls (wich is sexistic bullshit, I agree) does.

    Now you're just being rude. Is it because you, deep inside, knows that I am right?


    See, we totally disagree on what sexism is, wich is why it is so fuckin important to be able to debate theese things, in a CONSTRUCTIVE way.

    No, you are NOT alone in that quire, cause my voice will be among the shoutings too! Woman should NEVER be reduced to mere sex-objects instead of human beings, by sexist men who enjoy their position in the partriachacy.

    Here we go again. "You are stupid, I am right". I don't know if you are aware of this, but the concept behind debating is that people disagree on certain things. Otherwise, why should we even comunicate at all, if one supreme ruling person had all the right answers (again, this is what fascists belive in). And NO! I am still NOT saying that you are a fascist, but serious, that "my way or the highway" mentallity is not very constructive. Sexism is one of the most outspoken forms of discrimination in the world today, and if we can't even have a debate on what we see as sexism, without calling each othe stupid, then anarchopunk is for sure dead!



    - Smash Triple-oppression, Capitalism and the State!

    :anarchism:
     
  8. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    I'm not even going to waste more time with you if you can't understand why a picture blog called "punks i'd like to fuck" doesn't have its place on anarcho-punk.net, especially with someone who doesn't have better arguments than godwin points each time he post something, and putting words into my mouth (AH ! FASCISM !) . Don't you have anything better to stand up for ? Keep thinking that it's because i know you're right and blah-blah-blah, i don't give a flying fuck.
     
  9. Veganarchy

    Veganarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    Come on, why do you get so pissed, just because I want to discuss different perspectives in anti-sexism?

    It is you who use the word "feminazi", so I guess you also have been done a lot of thinking about modern feminism/antisexism.

    I think it's always important to stand up for you rights to have an open discussion within the scene, about what we see as discrimination and oppression. Otherwise we get stuck in some old analyzes, and lose our impact on society as a counter-culture.

    I really wish that you could understand that we are fighting the same struggle, only with different views, and the reason why I want to debate this, is not because I want to piss you off, but because I simply don't agree with your opinion and analyses on sexism, maybe just because I misinterpretated what you were saying.
     
  10. ungovernable

    ungovernable Autonome Staff Member Uploader Admin Team Experienced member


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    You have the right to disagree. I'm not pissed.
     
  11. Veganarchy

    Veganarchy Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    That's nice to hear :)

    Do you want to take this discussion further on, or should we just let it go from here?

    I'm still not quite sure if I got into your definition of objectifying women correct, but if you dont feel like taking this furthen on right now, we can always have the discussion another time, if you are up for it?

    I'm quit sure we agree on most levels, but after all, it is pretty easy to misunderstand each other, especially when we both write in a language that is not our native tongue.
     
  12. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    it seems that I'm a bit late for the PILF-site, but I know two former members of the suicidal girls (who gave me quite a coaching after we stumbled about the topic of the sexindustry) and even if i assume that PILF is presenting still dressed people i don't think that it makes any difference, because both sides openly relate punk as a counter culture with sex only - to me this smells quite a bit like escaping the boredom of standard sex media if not fetishism.
    both sites try to break the lack of attraction of every-day-sex-business with the "exotic" looks of punks - but I've never seen any women on "suicide girls" not meeting the necessary bodymeasures to be regarded as "attractive" or sexy.
    it's not "punks i like to live with" or just "punks i like" - it's punks i like to fuck... getting even more ridiculous with statements like "fucking is natural" or "we are all ridden by our "primitive" drives since the prehistoric..." we aren't that way even if we still suffer the symtoms of the system that made us punks discussing the aspects of sexism ect.
    i think i'm far from being asexual, but i think the importance sex is getting in the public because of it's economic exploitation (resulting from the social isolation in oppressive societies) is far from being "natural" or realistic - look at some native people still living on the borders of our "civilisation" and running around naked the whole day through, doing/earning their living without need for pornography or having sex the whole time through - thats natural and most possible our true nature, we are humans, not "genders".

    feminism isn't enough to deal with the problem, feminism is dealing with the oppression of females only - but the problem is the oppression of every human being by the system - not just only one group or gender.
    personally i regard anarcho-feminism as a ideological and philosophical mistake - and to follow this mistake is keeping authoritarianism and oppression up and not surprising: most feminists i know are liberals who never thought about abolishing the state and every other powerstructure.
    german feminism rose in the 70's with an "porn-no!" campaign and the most prominent advocate of the campaign is still regarded as the icon of feminism. what a joke, this woman never questioned authority and made quite a carreer writing book after book, publishing a monthly magazine - only to be outdated by the reformist smokescreens of neoliberal mass manipulators aka. politicians doing their job. and the "page 1" girls she took so serious are still disgracing their gender on the tabloid "bild"...
    germany now has a female chancellor, the brits had iron maggie, the u.s. will have hilarious clinton one day - and it didn't made any difference and never will - it's the system, not the gender of individuals...
    pornograpy will most likely vanish with capitalism if we manage to abolish repression and exploitation, personally i don't give a shit about it's "moral" aspects and the sexism imminent to pornography is obvious but not the real problem. some of my hungary friends took the money for exposing the last crevice of their bodies, a few became quite "famous" doing things they would never do in their real life - now most of them regret it after loosing their youthful attractivity and going "out of date" because they don't fit into all the "freethinking" pay-sites no more - bad luck in capitalism.
     
  13. punkmar77

    punkmar77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    This is why I really respect you lil, you have a wonderful way of explaining positions that I agree with 100%, but in certain situations a females voice and opinion are more appropriate and relevant than what I have to spout....
     
  14. kidd

    kidd Member New Member


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    haha okay crass
     
  15. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    yess, i'll get me a pair of those fine NPS-working boots next month... :ecouteurs:
     
  16. Caps

    Caps Experienced Member Experienced member Forum Member


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    I don't quite understand. Why do you think anarcho-feminism is a philosophical and ideological mistake? While I couldn't say I am an anarcho-feminist, I would consider myself an anarchist and a feminist. I would have thought that as most feminists you have encountered are not anti-state, that a anarcho-feminist perspective would be considered important. Is it that you think the state and patriarchy are of the same power structure and, therefore, the expansion of terms is redundant?

    With the details in this part, I am interested on Ungovernable's view. I'm not sure how someone can be so opposed to a website that is pretty inane and pathetic compared to the potential of genuine exploitation and abuse in the porn industry.
     
  17. JackNegativity

    JackNegativity Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    I think it's true that prostitution and sex industry work will disappear as there will be no need for it as your living needs will be met. I doubt, however, porn will ever disappear. Not completely, anyway. It's not always about the money. Some people are genuinely into exhibitionism and will continue to do picture trading etc. Commercial porn will be history (and good riddance) but human sexuality will always be around.
     
  18. Malignance_is_bliss

    Malignance_is_bliss Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member


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    Very true. To deny our sexuality is to deny our humanity. Things like porn, at least in my opinion, will never completely stop, even if the industry aspect of it were to be abolished.
     
  19. vAsSiLy77

    vAsSiLy77 Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    thats exactly what i think - first, because anarchism is a philosophy promoting the liberation of ALL human beings from every kind of oppression - including androcentric hierarchy and patriarchate - so feminism becomes redundand at least and in some of it's aspects quite counter revolutionary - still considering females as something special or deserving more sensitivity? equal rights and women's quota without any regard/critics to "female" socialisation and education?

    second would be: not only women suffer under the rule of men and the ruling view about "what's a man" - men suffer too, especially if they deviate from the prevailing image of "men" - most prominent example: the gays - and their punishment as a cultural crime, because it's not related with their biological/evolutionary role but kinda deterrence not to leave the line.

    to me feminism falls into the very same old trap - emphasizing a "difference" which is a biological fact only, but completely without any importance in real public life or society, especially in anarchistic societies.
    there are lots of examples of females in male roles and vice versa in history, some of todays societies like india or thailand rely heavily on females doing the heavy and dirty work at construction sites - commanded by guess whom - ? their menial/physical work is just another aspect of their oppression by their patriarchal fathers and brothers who prefer to give the instructions and bear all the responsibility...
    there is nothing a male could do which can't be done by a female too, especially today with the help of education and technology - the only problem is: do they dare to do a man's job...?

    i don't need a gender to define myself - my emotional, mental, tactile/physical abilities are very much the same of any other human being - there are women stronger and men weaker than me - so i guess the real problem is that we are still told how to feel, think and act as a fe-/male or according to our "gender", but in reality it doesn't even make any difference who i choose to share my sexual needs with... female or male - it only depends on mutual sexual orientation and compliance, thanks to limited sciences sex has become liberated from reproduction for heterosexuals too.
    pregnancy and birth are the only exception from this - but afterwards no baby has ever cared about the gender of the one who gave her/him the bottle or the affection and care to raise her/him like a human being.
    i wrote a bit about it in the "anarchy, sex and art" topic (a mess...).
    too bad that i don't know enough about prehistoric sociology to be able to pinpoint the time when the old matriarchal societies turned into patriarchal hierarchies and started to divide the genders to create "inferior" females and "strong" men. as far as i know this development started somewhere in the early neolithic - the same time where the first cities grew because agriculture became the reason for increasing populations, division of labour and growing private property - wellknown problems of capitalism.
    in matriarchal societies women never ruled (there is no archeological evidence) but "kept" the family property - like the Iroquois Confederacy in Canada for example, where both genders have equal opportunities in politics, but the laws of inheritance are with the women for the benefit of the children - just following the old wisdom that you can't be sure about your father, but you always know who your mother is...
    i guess it was ol'friedrich engels who wrote that the development of capitalism started when the "men" took over the rule and declared women as "inferior" - preventing them from participating equally in society. in his materialistic view the growing private property became a tool to employ power, buy votes and soldiers by abusing it to gain influence and building up power structures.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matriarchy
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androcentrism vs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_anthropology
    as i said, feminists end up too short...
    how would you feel if some - sorry - less attractive 40something - female would approach you on the street and asks you "you're a punk, can i fuck you?" - yes, it's stupid and inane - but it's only the stupid and inane expression of the whole sexist system we have to suffer because it degrades us to mere images without any personality. it's not the real problem, but it's part of it and it's smelly and unpleasant to the touch - so i'm not unhappy that the tread was locked/blocked.
    sorry, but exhibitionism has nothing to do with a healthy sexuality:
    after google translator:
    http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibitionismus
    for a true exhibitionist photos and pictures have no value - part of the exitement is the actual reaction on her or his rulebreaking - so all the blabbering of the porn industry to give exhibitionist an opportunity to express themselves is bullshit - just for the business, not for the people.
    don't get me wrong - i don't advocate human asexuality - but capitalism and patriarchat use and corrupt sexuality for their own good, so we might find out something completely different/new after the system is gone and people become humans again because personal relationships are not longer limited by cliches and stereotypes - tools to keep up the order of things, but far from everything we might be without their limitations.
     
  20. JackNegativity

    JackNegativity Experienced Member Uploader Experienced member Forum Member


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    As long as there's technology to capture images, there will be some form of porn. If two people choose to trade sexual pics because that is what excites them, I don't see a problem. It's nobody else's business--not christians, not governments, not feminists--nobody. Many individuals and couples will always document themselves nude or in the act of sex and, like I said, that won't end as long as the technology exists.

    I don't believe there is a "wrong" way for consenting adults to engage in a sexual relationship. I would consider "dirty pic-trading buddies" a sexual relationship (if the pics are used for mutual sexual gratification). I call it exhibitionism, but if there is another word for it then I don't know it. If people choose to do it, that's their right. If they're not making somebody money from it, then it IS "for the people" involved and not "for the business". I'm not condoning commercial pornography (or commercial anything for that matter), but porn will always exist in some form.
     
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