Ideology, Dogma and Conformity in the "Undergeround"

[Anarchaos]

Against my hopes and dreams, I believe that a lot of "anarchists", this board included are rigid and dogmatic, thinking of "anarchism" and "punk" as their own personal replacements for religions, and are unwilling to adapt, update, compromise, learn or work with anyone who doesn't share their own specific interpretation of "anarcho-punk" scripture.

A bit of back story first. Since first getting internet access in '96 during my adolescence, and listening to my first NOFX and Bad Religion (yes I know >_<) I have considered myself to have been into punk and anarchist thought and philosophy. I was that kid in my class, my school. Sure there were others, but I felt like the only one who took it seriously to any degree. I studied Anarchism from "the Anarchist FAQ" and I skimmed various communist, socialist and progressive literature and media sources. I bought every "punk" album from the Columbia House and Fat Wreck catalogs that I could.

Yeah I was/am bourgeois, privileged, white, heterosexual male. But I tried to learn and spread what I thought was "the good word". I printed and distributed atheist/ anti-capitalist/ feminist/ socialist etc tracts. I lectured friends and anyone who would listen. I bought and wore every AK press t-shirt that my parents would allow me to (lol).

So here I am many years later, thinking back to my youth, my positions, my beliefs, the meager stands I took, the token sacrifices I made in defense of what I believed in. I didn't do anything spectacular or outstanding, but I am still proud of the part I played in the "punk" and "anarchist" subcultures/movements, however minor and insignificant it may have been.

The other week I did a search for a favorite band of mine, and I found myself here, and holy fucking shit. What the fuck guys? What the fuck happened? I will admit I am completely talking out of my ass here, but let me lay out what I have seen here so far:

(1) There is a dominant "anarcho-punk" dogma here that everyone is expected to subscribe to and obey. I put the term in quotations because it's a very fucking narrow interpretation of those two terms. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to this popular version of these ideas is a "fascist", "authoritarian", "sexist", "racist", "homophobe", etc etc etc

(2) Only the most obscure and "underground" bands get to be "punk". Everyone else is a "sellout" and "mainstream" and "bourgeois" and "popular" and "typical". So far, I think there's a list of maybe 5 bands that those of us who are Harder-core-than-thou get too deem "worthy" in the whole world of art and music.

(3) Differing ideas and opinions in general are treated like "heresy" brought in by "outsiders" who are obviously sexist racist fascist who want to rape and dominate us enlightened and brave resistance fighters. Anyone who doesn't think like us, act like us, eat like us, talk like us etc are all "reactionaries", "part of the hierarchy", "patriarchs" etc. Dissent and divergence from the central dogmas, ideologies and conventions is treated harshly, defensively, closed-mindedly and generally antagonistically.

To state again, I am mostly just pulling this out of my ass. I took a few days to glance at posts and links posted here, and participated in very few discussions. So maybe this is all wrong. Maybe I got the wrong idea. Are modern "anarchists" and "punks" just another sect, just another fuckin faction?

[Apllesos]

hmm, i certainly hope i don't fall into those categories, then again, i'm new to the site, to an extant, this is the first i've actually bothered to read anything here, my first impression was that the site was mainly aimed towards angsty teenagers, maybe i'm right, but, if you're still an active member of the website, i would like to have many lengthy discussions with you.

[Caps]

Against my hopes and dreams, I believe that a lot of "anarchists", this board included are rigid and dogmatic, thinking of "anarchism" and "punk" as their own personal replacements for religions, and are unwilling to adapt, update, compromise, learn or work with anyone who doesn't share their own specific interpretation of "anarcho-punk" scripture.

A bit of back story first. Since first getting internet access in '96 during my adolescence, and listening to my first NOFX and Bad Religion (yes I know >_<) I have considered myself to have been into punk and anarchist thought and philosophy. I was that kid in my class, my school. Sure there were others, but I felt like the only one who took it seriously to any degree. I studied Anarchism from "the Anarchist FAQ" and I skimmed various communist, socialist and progressive literature and media sources. I bought every "punk" album from the Columbia House and Fat Wreck catalogs that I could.

Yeah I was/am bourgeois, privileged, white, heterosexual male. But I tried to learn and spread what I thought was "the good word". I printed and distributed atheist/ anti-capitalist/ feminist/ socialist etc tracts. I lectured friends and anyone who would listen. I bought and wore every AK press t-shirt that my parents would allow me to (lol).

So here I am many years later, thinking back to my youth, my positions, my beliefs, the meager stands I took, the token sacrifices I made in defense of what I believed in. I didn't do anything spectacular or outstanding, but I am still proud of the part I played in the "punk" and "anarchist" subcultures/movements, however minor and insignificant it may have been.

The other week I did a search for a favorite band of mine, and I found myself here, and holy fucking shit. What the fuck guys? What the fuck happened? I will admit I am completely talking out of my ass here, but let me lay out what I have seen here so far:

(1) There is a dominant "anarcho-punk" dogma here that everyone is expected to subscribe to and obey. I put the term in quotations because it's a very fucking narrow interpretation of those two terms. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to this popular version of these ideas is a "fascist", "authoritarian", "sexist", "racist", "homophobe", etc etc etc

(2) Only the most obscure and "underground" bands get to be "punk". Everyone else is a "sellout" and "mainstream" and "bourgeois" and "popular" and "typical". So far, I think there's a list of maybe 5 bands that those of us who are Harder-core-than-thou get too deem "worthy" in the whole world of art and music.

(3) Differing ideas and opinions in general are treated like "heresy" brought in by "outsiders" who are obviously sexist racist fascist who want to rape and dominate us enlightened and brave resistance fighters. Anyone who doesn't think like us, act like us, eat like us, talk like us etc are all "reactionaries", "part of the hierarchy", "patriarchs" etc. Dissent and divergence from the central dogmas, ideologies and conventions is treated harshly, defensively, closed-mindedly and generally antagonistically.

To state again, I am mostly just pulling this out of my ass. I took a few days to glance at posts and links posted here, and participated in very few discussions. So maybe this is all wrong. Maybe I got the wrong idea. Are modern "anarchists" and "punks" just another sect, just another fuckin faction?

Regarding your favourite band - are we talking about a Stza-band or CRASS? (It's unclear because there has been a lot of shit on here recently about CRASS but you took issue with the talk over SFH).

In response to your list:

1) It has been said many times that there is an 'introduction and points of unity' section that indicates what is considered constructive chat and what is not. At the end of the day, as long as you don't talk shittily to people, they are likely to be all right to you. I grant that with the heated and passionately points of debate that can be difficult but as long as we try and not fuck each other off, things should be all good. Does that seem unreasonable?

2) I think your point is a little extreme but arguable. If someone comes on here and speaks about certain bands - e.g. NOFX or, hypothetically speaking (as I've never seen it done) The Offspring - people might have their tastes challenged. I think maybe some people who may be new to anarcho-punk or punk generally could be and should be given a bit of a break. However, if there are serious areas of concern (for example, CRASS buggering over this site with legal challenges and The Exploited's ambiguous and worrying associates) then I think it's fair that these points need to be addressed.

3) There's been plenty of fruitful discussion on here in the past. Even fairly recently there was the Copwatch thread I thought was shocking with shit going down in Anaheim. To be fair, I haven't seen you contribute very much, apart from to defend Stza and say some other things in another thread that I'd rather leave forgotten. By all means, if you have something constructive to add or a topic to talk about, feel free to contribute.

I'll be honest, from your initial introduction it seems like you look at anarchy and punk almost nostalgically. Maybe you can't relate to any of this stuff any more. Maybe you can and we're all idiots. I'd say it's probably too soon to tell.

[punkmar77]

To state again, I am mostly just pulling this out of my ass. I took a few days to glance at posts and links posted here, and participated in very few discussions. So maybe this is all wrong. Maybe I got the wrong idea. Are modern "anarchists" and "punks" just another sect, just another fuckin faction?

Sounds about right,

Yup we're a secret sect, and you're invited at midnight to shed your blood to the unholy anarchist reptilian punk messiahs...give me a fuckin' break...

[JesusCrust]

Are modern "anarchists" and "punks" just another sect, just another fuckin faction?

Was this an Operation Ivy reference?

[butcher]

(1) There is a dominant "anarcho-punk" dogma here that everyone is expected to subscribe to and obey. I put the term in quotations because it's a very fucking narrow interpretation of those two terms. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to this popular version of these ideas is a "fascist", "authoritarian", "sexist", "racist", "homophobe", etc etc etc

(2) Only the most obscure and "underground" bands get to be "punk". Everyone else is a "sellout" and "mainstream" and "bourgeois" and "popular" and "typical". So far, I think there's a list of maybe 5 bands that those of us who are Harder-core-than-thou get too deem "worthy" in the whole world of art and music.

(3) Differing ideas and opinions in general are treated like "heresy" brought in by "outsiders" who are obviously sexist racist fascist who want to rape and dominate us enlightened and brave resistance fighters. Anyone who doesn't think like us, act like us, eat like us, talk like us etc are all "reactionaries", "part of the hierarchy", "patriarchs" etc. Dissent and divergence from the central dogmas, ideologies and conventions is treated harshly, defensively, closed-mindedly and generally antagonistically.

Be specific, give examples. Cos at the moment it seems as though yr "mostly just pulling this out of [yr arse]".

[ungovernable]

Anarchaos

I love reading someones thoughts on anarchism that thinks anarchism is chaos. Maybe you should understand what the ideology is all about before passing judgment on anarchists...