Crass: Capitalist traitors using copyright laws against Anarcho-Punk.Net - 3000 albums deleted because of these greedy selfish sellout bastards

[Ivanovich]

1. In 1982 I got over 20 quid / week signing on. If they could live off 2 quid / day, they doing ok.
2. Dial House was never a squat. They bought it after new owners took it over and wanted them out.
3. Cost to produce 12 inch vinyl in 1980, 1000 quid per 1000, less in greater quantity.
4. Cost to produce CD now, with booklet, 700 quid per 1000, less in greater quality.
5. Latest release of 'Feeding' being sold for 9 quid.
6. Profits from 'Bloody Revolutions' (sold for 70p) were used to set up the 'Anarchist Centre' (ie: it made money).
7. Profits from first 5000 of 'Feeding' (released on Small Wonder) were used to set up Crass Records and re-release the album.
8. Southern was never an 'anarcho' anything. Bauhaus and Jesus and Mary Chain also recorded there.
9. 48 track, not cheap back in the old days. Not very DIY, is it? But it's ok, stamp 'Crass Records' on it, nobody will ever know.
10. In the agreement on Bullshit, they said they would contact us later with payment. 30 years later, and still waiting.
11. 25 quid to see Mr Ignorant's Crass in London, perhaps he flew there via New York?
12. In UK you are EXEMPT from charging VAT until turnover hits a certain amout (35,000 in 1990)- if charging VAT, they doing ok.

Step back, take a look. The logo, their own font, black uniform, black and white artwork, films, publicity stunts, getting banned, headlines, gimmicks, sound familiar???. It's just a marketing ploy. All just packaging for some fucked up 'Art/Media' experiment. What makes you think the 'message' aint also packaging? The Sex Pistols sang about anarchy too. Rebellion sells. Anarchy sells. Crass were just a bit more subtle about it. Anarchist do not buy their house when threatened with eviction, nor do they record in 48 track studios and put out shit on labels like Southern, nor do they do overpriced gigs, and sell overpriced records and books, and anarchists certainly do not suddenly turn into capitalists when they hit a certain age. Nor would they have done this to APN.

You been ripped off. We all have.

[ungovernable]

http://www.facebook.com/crass

Crass
Yesterday
Afraid we've disabled posts by others on here due to a flurry of lies and abuse being spread about by a nefarious bunch looking for a scapegoat for their latest non-drama. Sorry about that. Regular programming will resume...eventually... probably.

[Ivanovich]

What lies?

Looks like APN getting quite a bit of support over there. I like the 'Aplolgoy and donation from Southern for new server' Idea.

[mike kadomiya]

I've heard that many times, sorry but it sounds like big bullshit.

Let's ASSUME you are right.

Let's ASSUME it cost $10k for the band to get to Canada

The tickets were at $30 each and there was over 2000 persons. That's $50k profit INCLUDING their plane tickets, and i'm not counting the merch sold. And trust me they have sold A LOOOOT of merch, it took my friend 30 minutes just to get 1 tshirt since there was so many people waiting to buy merch. The merch dude has a pile of money of easily over $10k just in his hands.

And remember, Steve Ignorant played 40 shows. Just checked on his official website. So you have to multiply this number...

You actually believe that Steve Ignorant's Crass generated 2 million dollars??? Even if they did, this would have put the band into a tax bracket that would eventually end up costing more money than the band could sustain.

I looked at the U.S. tour dates. I have played half of these venues and I can tell you that none of them have a capacity of more than 800 maybe 900. That aside, your math is really leaving out a lot of variables. I will go further and say that your math is ridiculous. It's like someone who doesn't understand why a beer costs more at a bar than it does at the store.

At most of these venues the room cost alone most likely over $1000. The promoter has a budget for advertising and hospitality. The promoter also takes a cut. Every opening band gets paid as well. The shortest drives on this tour are about six hours, most of them are more like 10-12 hours. Between gas and hotels they were probably spending anywhere from $200-$500 a day. Sure, staying at hotels might not be d.i.y. or punk but if I'm fifty year old Steve Ignorant, I probably don't want to sleep on a pile of beer and dog shit at a glorified squat or stay up all night talking politics with a sixteen year old anarchist in their parents basement. Whether or not anarchist principles dictate that Ignorant should be among the people conversing and sharing philosophies the reality is, having the same conversation every night for a month straight is fucking exhausting.

I'm assuming that they also had to rent a vehicle and possibly gear, this is another daily expense. The base cost for a band to enter Canada legitimately is $400 no matter how many or how few shows you are playing. If the border patrol decides to look at the band's merch, they have to pay tax on every single t-shirt, cd, and record. So if they had as much merch as you say, it might have cost them a shit load of money just to play two shows. Again, if someone wants to bring anarchy into the picture and say that they should have crossed the border illegally, talk to the Montreal punks who all rioted and destroyed a venue because the Exploited got turned away at the border and had to cancel their Canadian shows (7, 8 years ago?).

All of this on top of airfare and work permits to get into the States. My friend booked all of the recent Cocksparrer shows. The amount of work, time, and money that went into just getting the band into the country legally was way more than the cost of a standard flight across the pond.

I'll admit that $30 is a steep ticket price, but that ticket price is among the many reasons I didn't go to any of these shows. There's nothing more apathetic than complaining about the price or quality of something and then buying it anyways 'cause you simply must have it. I'm not denying that the band came home with a few bucks in their pocket but trust me, no one got rich.

All of the overhead involved in playing borderline corporate rock venues adds up pretty quick. But you know what, any self proclaimed anarchist paying $30 to see a Crass cover band play at a shitty rock club with bouncers and barricades should have known that they were being ripped off in the first place.

[Ivanovich]

DID THEY FUCKING FLY TO SHEPHERDS BUSH WHEN THEY PLAYED THERE???

Strange post, that. I mean, you type all that stuff, then right at the end you say: Well yeah, they was ripping people off.

Charlie Harper must be getting close to 70 by now, last time I saw UK Subs play it cost 3 quid, though that must be over 10 years ago.

[ungovernable]

What lies?

Looks like APN getting quite a bit of support over there. I like the 'Aplolgoy and donation from Southern for new server' Idea.

Yup but they're definatly not going to do that.

You actually believe that Steve Ignorant's Crass generated 2 million dollars??? Even if they did, this would have put the band into a tax bracket that would eventually end up costing more money than the band could sustain.

I don't know for other gigs, all i can say is that at Montreal :

- 30$ per tickets
- Over 2000 tickets sold
- Hundreds and hundreds of merch sold
- Price for the venue is obviously covered by the merch sold

Do the math. This is a FACT.

I looked at the U.S. tour dates. I have played half of these venues and I can tell you that none of them have a capacity of more than 800 maybe 900. That aside, your math is really leaving out a lot of variables. I will go further and say that your math is ridiculous. It's like someone who doesn't understand why a beer costs more at a bar than it does at the store.

Explain me where I am wrong.

At most of these venues the room cost alone most likely over $1000. The promoter has a budget for advertising and hospitality. The promoter also takes a cut. Every opening band gets paid as well. The shortest drives on this tour are about six hours, most of them are more like 10-12 hours. Between gas and hotels they were probably spending anywhere from $200-$500 a day. Sure, staying at hotels might not be d.i.y. or punk but if I'm fifty year old Steve Ignorant, I probably don't want to sleep on a pile of beer and dog shit at a glorified squat or stay up all night talking politics with a sixteen year old anarchist in their parents basement. Whether or not anarchist principles dictate that Ignorant should be among the people conversing and sharing philosophies the reality is, having the same conversation every night for a month straight is fucking exhausting.

I'm assuming that they also had to rent a vehicle and possibly gear, this is another daily expense. The base cost for a band to enter Canada legitimately is $400 no matter how many or how few shows you are playing. If the border patrol decides to look at the band's merch, they have to pay tax on every single t-shirt, cd, and record. So if they had as much merch as you say, it might have cost them a shit load of money just to play two shows. Again, if someone wants to bring anarchy into the picture and say that they should have crossed the border illegally, talk to the Montreal punks who all rioted and destroyed a venue because the Exploited got turned away at the border and had to cancel their Canadian shows (7, 8 years ago?).

All of this on top of airfare and work permits to get into the States. My friend booked all of the recent Cocksparrer shows. The amount of work, time, and money that went into just getting the band into the country legally was way more than the cost of a standard flight across the pond.

Ok, so you are telling me all of this cost $60,000 ?

[Ivanovich]

Actually, maybe more like 20 years. Around same time Steve was charging 25 quid...

Stiff Little Fingers, Hawkwind: 14
Conflict plus about 8 bands: 10 (benefit)
Angelic Upstarts plus about 15 bands: 10 (benefit)
Oi Polloi, Cress, Active Slaughter: 5 (benefit)
Restarts: 3
Inner Terrestrials: free

[ungovernable]

LOL

Supporters of private proprety and copyright at OrganizeAndArise (the new Profane Existence) pick on APN again and spread their anti-file-sharing bullshit !
http://www.organizeandarise.org/communi ... re-account

[Ivanovich]

Ack, seems I got to register to go on there...

You know, back in the 80s, nobody outside the UK ever heard of Crass. I don't think they ever played outside UK, and they weren't that popular inside UK neither. They would have disappeared without trace (which is what I expected to happen) except for the internet, and file sharing. I was amazed when I found out people in USA and had heard of them, that be in the late 90s. I was amazed they heard of Exploited too, but thats another story.

[Ivanovich]

Well, what you expect. PE aint anarcho, they just diehard record collectors.

I mean, why the fuck press vinyl? Seriously? Is that a better way to spread your message? I don't fucking think so.

[mike kadomiya]

Strange post, that. I mean, you type all that stuff, then right at the end you say: Well yeah, they was ripping people off.

You can rip people off without making tons of money. The summer blockbuster movie "Jon Carter" was a huge commercial failure that lost millions of dollars. The people who paid to see it still got ripped off.
Here's the point I was trying to make: Most of the people on here are blasting Crass for being capitalist sell-outs and for betraying their beliefs. This criticism is drawn after some clusterfuck of a story about copyright laws. Why then, did any of those people go to see Crass songs performed at a big corporate venue with a backstage, bouncers, barricades, overpriced corporate beer, I'm assuming some kind of ticketmaster arrangement etc... Everything about these gigs seems pretty far removed from the ideals of Crass yet 2,000 people in Montreal dropped $30 to see it.

I was never defending Steve Ignorant, I am just defending touring bands as a whole, from the ignorance of music fans.

I don't know for other gigs, all i can say is that at Montreal :

- 30$ per tickets
- Over 2000 tickets sold
- Hundreds and hundreds of merch sold
- Price for the venue is obviously covered by the merch sold

Do the math. This is a FACT.

Yes. It is a fact that 30 x 2000 = 60,000

Explain me where I am wrong.

You are wrong if you think that 2000 tickets sold at $30 each results in $60,000 for the band. That would mean that %100 of the ticket sales went to the band.

Big venues have thousands of dollars in overhead: a staff of around sixty- bouncers, loaders, runners, bartenders, bar backs, floor managers, office managers, sound engineers, lighting techs, custodians etc... The venue has to pay utilities on powering all of the sound and lighting equipment not to mention air conditioning a room that holds 2,000 people. They have to pay for all kinds of permits, taxes, and insurance, maintenance, supplies, disposables, advertising, hospitality (towels, food, beer, water) for the band. Above all else, these venues are a business- they are in it to make money. On the night of a show, the band signs a contract which makes them a freelance contractor for the club. Do you really think that the club is going to let an employee make more than the boss? I would be shocked if the band had a guarantee that was even close to $10,000. Bands do not set the ticket prices, the ticket price is determined by the club based on the bands' guarantee. Granted, the higher the guarantee, the higher the ticket price- I'll give you that.

I'm sure the band made lots of money in merch but take this into account: Venues that large always take a cut of the merch, this means that they had to count every single t-shirt before and after the show and pay the venue anywhere from %5-%10 of what they sold. If the customs agents at the Canadian border went through their merch (which is extremely likely considering that the band was neither Canadian or American.) they would have had to pay Canadian sales tax on every shirt they were carrying whether they sold them or not. Trust me I've been through all of this. And they didn't get their merch for free. Most likely it had to be made in the U.S.

Trust me I've been in and around the music business for fifteen years. I've played and gone to shows in venues ranging from basements and churches to 2,000+ capacity clubs. I have close friends who have worked at these types of large venues for over ten years, I've been friends with bigger bands, managers, and booking agents for over ten years. I'm not talking out of my ass here.

[punkmar77]

Listen mike kadomiya do you think you're talking to children or just 'music fans'? I've been playing music and touring since the late 70's as have several others of us on this forum, please save it, no matter how apologetic you are for them or however you try to spin or crunch the numbers...it's total shit, they have resorted to copyright infringement laws = c a p i t a l i s m ..... and as far as Allison being the scapegoat I have no doubt that she is their attack dog but those 4 ex Crass members are holding the leash...so fuck them all.

Trust me I've been in and around the music business for fifteen years.

Wow I missed this part, I have instruments that are twice that old...but who gives a fuck?

[Ivanovich]

Indeed. Mike, I even tried to book Crass in '81, but they refused. They don't play at colleges, it seems.

No 'anarchist' that was half way genuine would ever act as they have, no matter how old they might be.

There is no excuse. No defence.

Fuckin' white, middle class art-school wankers.

So yeah, fuck 'em all.

[Ivanovich]

Listen mike kadomiya do you think you're talking to children or just 'music fans'? I've been playing music and touring since the late 70's as have several others of us on this forum, please save it, no matter how apologetic you are for them or however you try to spin or crunch the numbers...it's total shit, they have resorted to copyright infringement laws = c a p i t a l i s m ..... and as far as Allison being the scapegoat I have no doubt that she is their attack dog but those 4 ex Crass members are holding the leash...so fuck them all.

Trust me I've been in and around the music business for fifteen years.

Wow I missed this part, I have instruments that are twice that old...but who gives a fuck?

Yeah, I still got my old Les Paul copy that I bought for 75 quid in '85.

[mike kadomiya]

I was only addressing the notion that Steve Ignorant's Crass made $60,000 on one show.

I wasn't trying to condescend or impress anyone with my resume. And I am certainly not an ageist, i regularly hang out with friends of all ages. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with this information. That's the trouble with communicating in text I suppose. I was just trying to add validity to my statements about this particular tour. When I said "ignorant music fans" perhaps I should have phrased it: uniformed music fans. Those of you who have had similar band/touring experience should be able to relate. There are always uninformed music fans making wild claims about what kind of money a band makes or what the band members do in their personal life.

Comb through every word I have written, I haven't defended Crass once this whole time. The only thing I have been trying to impress is that, sell outs or not, nobody got paid $60,000 for the Montreal show.

[Ivanovich]

Maybe, but can you explain how not really 'anarcho' Angelic Upstarts can put on a show with 15 bands in a 2000 size hall, with 2 stages, for 10 quid, and still make enough to donate to their chosen cause, while Anarcho King Ignorant is charging 25 quid for 4 bands, at a smaller venue?

You can't, can you.

[mike kadomiya]

What is there to explain? Ignorant is a disappointment, I never said anything to the contrary.

[punkmar77]

Well it did smack of being condescending, saw The Zounds with Resist and Exist and a couple of shit bands last year in LA which is nearly 250 miles away for $10 it felt like a total celebration there was no need for them to cash in and sell overpriced merch or tickets and guess what, they came all the way from London too... so what I'm saying here is that it's important for people in anarcho bands to stick with what they preach otherwise hang it up and do something else entirely, and don't hide behind the facade of blaming it all on your record label.

[Ivanovich]

So what we talking about? Why does it appear that you are defending something that you aint. You trying to confuse me?

[mike kadomiya]

I wasn't trying to confuse ya. I just got too carried away with writing. The only only only point I was trying to make is that they did not get paid $60,000 for one show and that they did not come home from tour with 2 million dollars. Somebody posted that they made $60,000 on a show based on the logic that tickets were $30 and 2,000 people paid. I was just trying to point out that this logic is flawed.