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PE discusses AP.net

Anything not related to music, politics, or punk goes in this forum!
Unserious discussions should go in the "off-topic" forum, NOT here.

Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby punkmar77 on 16/12/2009, 00:24

What I think I noticed on their thread was either its being censored, or there just isn't a healthy diversity of opinion from the PE members, at least on here we get into some knockout dragout discussions with a wonderful variety of expressions of thought. It seems like a cult of personality with Dan surrounded by yes men, only one of their regular posters sided with us out of 4 pages of replies. Am I wrong?
http://www.shit-fi.com/Reviews/Diatribe/Diatribe.htm

http://www.inventati.org/ingobernables/biblio_anarquismo.htm

http://libcom.org/library/anarchism-vs-primitivism

http://www.anarchistnews.org/

http://www.facebook.com/AnarchoDbeat?sk=app_178091127385

An Anarchist is, by definition, they that do not want to be oppressed nor be the oppressors. They that want the maximum amount of well being, the maximum amount of liberty, and the maximum amount of development for all human beings.
ERRICO MALATESTA

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby ungovernable on 16/12/2009, 00:26

I'd like Dan to come over here and have a civil discussion and let bygones be bygones.

Dan already came here to "explain" himself. But it was no use because he didn't answer any of the questions, he kept saying he doesn't need to ask the band what they think about free download before speaking in their name, and he didn't explain why he is asking 100$US per month to pay his server which cost only 3$ per month. In other words, we just wasted our time while he was calling us thieves and fake anarchists.

Im just upset because i saw that people on that board were calling people names and stuff and Dan didnt really interject, just against someone who was sticking up for AP.

Of course he didn't interject, he encourage peoples to talk shit about us...

i made the point that maybe their should be a better system here, like when someone goes to upload the mods then go and ask a band for permission and then let it go up after.

Doesn't solve the problem if the 2000+ albums uploaded, way too much work and too much complication, the album download will have the time to expire before we get authorization to post it, most of the bands aren't contactable, and i just can't immagine how we would manage all this on a big site like a-p.net
"The Frankenstein monster you created's turned against you, now you're hated"
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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby Anxiety69 on 16/12/2009, 00:26

ugh i posted a long post on their supporting APN and it fell on deaf ears... and got laughs when i said we are mostly anarchists here, suggested there were a lot there, and said we should be fighting together...
Image

I'm too pissed to be a folksinger
I'm not a punk but that's where I'm coming from
I'm not too into music but I got so much of it inside
I'm not a drunk aggressive idiot
And I used to believe in punk I thought it might offer something new
but punk ripped me off cheated me out of something close to me
I'm trying to move along but some roots reach pretty far down
I'm interested in politics and action In trying to create something that's not
I feel like I'm in the middle of everything There is no niche for me
And I believe in anarchy in trying to live autonomously
I try not to walk my talk but to talk my walk - $ETH!

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby dwtcos on 16/12/2009, 00:28

Anxiety69 wrote:ugh i posted a long post on their supporting APN and it fell on deaf ears... and got laughs when i said we are mostly anarchists here, suggested there were a lot there, and said we should be fighting together...

and we're the immature ones...
ImageImageImageImage
"A man who could hold his own skull in his hands would believe in few causes, few movements. Rather he would preach the opposite-" (The Skull by Philip K Dick)
http://www.last.fm/user/jackshmiddy

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby punkmar77 on 16/12/2009, 00:35

Hey when the Revolution comes and we obliterate the state, then we can choose sides according to web-site loyalty and off each other in a power hungry struggle for superiority.

O_o
http://www.shit-fi.com/Reviews/Diatribe/Diatribe.htm

http://www.inventati.org/ingobernables/biblio_anarquismo.htm

http://libcom.org/library/anarchism-vs-primitivism

http://www.anarchistnews.org/

http://www.facebook.com/AnarchoDbeat?sk=app_178091127385

An Anarchist is, by definition, they that do not want to be oppressed nor be the oppressors. They that want the maximum amount of well being, the maximum amount of liberty, and the maximum amount of development for all human beings.
ERRICO MALATESTA

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby ungovernable on 16/12/2009, 02:30

damn i have just read Dan PE answer on this thread.

I didn't want to get into this fight again but since they keep talking shit about us and insulting me :

some people have the belief they have the absolute right publicly re-distribute other peoples' art without their permission. That's not anarchy, that's theft

bwahhahahaha i think i laughted for 5 minutes when ive read this.... I think some peoples understood absolutly nothing of anarchism :P

A person who we could consider the "father of anarchism" said "proprety is theft" but hey since Dan PE is so much smarter and he got the absolute truth, let's rephrase this:

"Anarchy is not proprety is theft, denying private propriety is theft." - Dan PE

Since almost 2 centuries anarchists have been denying and fighting private proprety and copyrights, but hey it looks like we're all wrong. Thanks to Dan PE for making us realize anarchists are preaching "fake anarchy" and "theft" (to quote him) instead of being real anarchists.
2 centuries of activism in the wrong direction, but now Dan PE has opened our eyes.

He said it, and it's true because he said so. So let's follow him. After all, he's our punk rawk hero grandpa.

And the fact that one of the site's admins was such an asshole about his so-called right to post music that did not belong to him

How was i an asshole ? I just expressed my opinion, but Dan PE seems to think everyone who have different points of views are assholes.

AND DID NOT REMOVE PE'S MUSIC WHEN I REPEATEDLY ASKED HIM TO

If only YOU TOLD US THE DAMN ALBUMS YOU WANTED US TO REMOVE maybe it would have been easier, sherlock !

We had to repeat 10 times to this dude that without the album names, we can't know what stuff is on his label. I think it's something very easy to understand, but we had to repeat him 10 times.

In my mind there is no ideological rift between PE and APN, but you HAVE TO STOP POSTING MUSIC WITHOUT PERMISSION. PERMISSION! PERMISSION! PERMISSION! PERMISSION!!!

"i'm more anarchist than you because you have to ask me permission before you borrow my stuff!"

this is ridiculous...

Anarchy is "everything is to everyone". Not "everything is to me and you have to ask my permission even if i supposedly allow you to use my stuff" which basically equals to capitalism and private proprety.

When so-called "anarchists" fail to understand this BASIC logic, i feel like i have absolutly no lessons to get from them about what is anarchy and what is not.


Some other peoples said in that thread we want to destroy music industry but offer no alternative to it. Uh, so Anarchism isn't an alternative ?
Oh yeah but let me guess, you want IMMEDIATE alternatives, in the capitalist system ? So become a fucking reformist and stop calling yourself a revolutionary.


Anarcho-punk is just an easy target. The argument of "you didn't ask first" is totally stupid and not worth making the drama they are making when you see how millions of other websites are sharing the SAME stuff

They are denying the fact that this whole debate is directly linked to file sharing. If you really agree with free sharing (and free sharing is synonymous of free distribution) then this whole debate has no point.

We already know file sharing is principaly benefit to small bands who are just starting out, and it is doing more damage to the big bands who are already known. So since punk rock isn't supposed to be about getting famous neither making money, bigger bands shouldn't care if they make less money. Where the fuck is the problem ?
More downloads = more peoples at show = ensuring big bands can keep going on tour and releasing new albums
More downloads = more visibility for smaller bands = more peoples at show = more money = more album selling


Here is the compilation we are releasing for Pirate-Punk.net:
Image
title says
" Music industry is dying ? Let's finish to kill it. "


I hope you guys doesn't think just because a famous label like PE is fighting against downloads it means that those views are representative of the anarcho-punk scene. THIS IS WRONG !!!
There is WAY more supporters of free sharing in the punk scene than peoples defending private proprety. Let's just take the french scene for example: we are a BIG MAJORITY to support free sharing, most of the bands are giving their stuff for free on their websites, and no label make stupid dramas because we shared their stuff.
Oh and when you help peoples to share their stuff without authorization, they don't insult you but they say "thank you"

Moshpit Tragedy make a big drama because we didn't ask the permission but yet they are a label from Montral in Quebec, Canada and here everyone and all bands agree to share their stuff for free.

We made a website with free downloads from quebec bands. www.quebecunderground.net
in over 2 years not a single fucking complaint and nobody cryed because we didn't ask permission. We got a lot of thank you and support from the scene, but none of them insulted us because we didn't ask them permission before HELPING them.


Fuck all industries.
"The Frankenstein monster you created's turned against you, now you're hated"
- ©ra$s™ (Reject Of Society)

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby ungovernable on 16/12/2009, 02:41

http://www.PunksAndSkins.com

Now you have something to really cry about, fuckers.

80,000 fucking albums.
"The Frankenstein monster you created's turned against you, now you're hated"
- ©ra$s™ (Reject Of Society)

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby ASA on 16/12/2009, 09:08

insulted you, who cares, if you don't care, some good points though and sorry but all he said was that you could have asked permission and there aren't that many! albums on here, is there only one mod? hmmm and its called puttin in work, maybe something worth working on as an anarcho, you can get hold of nearly every band i'm afraid and that information can also be attained through the community, sounds lazy bro, jst sayn and probably worth ya time

and stop saying they insult you, aren't you the bigger person so stop insulting them with impunitve words like fucker, asshole, wanker all that shit(no good on/in the web), it is not helpful and divisive, i've been in flame wars and it is literally a waste of time..., literally.

There is more than one idea as it were and a free society lets them coecist, i also appreciate what you are trying to do, half ya forum members seem to want to buy pants? thats 'consumerism' right thar, i don't see u argue against them when it serves your purpose? thats jus thumans forming groupings, noones wrong to form groups but if your taking whats theres then mmm that is ummm just WRONG, anarchy isn't theft as it were, if u gave away another coops food, i'd be annoyed

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby ungovernable on 16/12/2009, 17:47

Oh, sorry for creating a division between us and the people who laught and ridiculize us when we say we are fighting a common ennemy.

There is more than one idea as it were and a free society lets them coecist, i also appreciate what you are trying to do, half ya forum members seem to want to buy pants? thats 'consumerism' right thar, i don't see u argue against them when it serves your purpose? thats jus thumans forming groupings, noones wrong to form groups but if your taking whats theres then mmm that is ummm just WRONG, anarchy isn't theft as it were, if u gave away another coops food, i'd be annoyed

Ok first i can't be everywhere and talk in all debates, i have other things to do too.

DIY is a part of anarchy, but anarchism isn't only DIY. Not everyone can/want to do it. It's the same thing with growing your own food. Some peoples want to do it, others want peoples to do it for them.

In an anarchist society, there still would be t-shirt sellers, pants sellers, and food sellers.

it serves my purpose ? Wtf does this means ? Take a look at http://anarchoi.resistance.tk i do a shitload of DIY stuff to, so defending the peoples who are against DIY isn't serving my purpose

I really don't know why you are so obsessed with DIY....

And this is not the subject of the debate. The point is that we were attacked, insulted, labelled as thieves and fake anarchists.

If some asshole call us thieves and start attacking and insulting us because we make our own DIY stuff, then i'll react the same and you will see me argueing.
"The Frankenstein monster you created's turned against you, now you're hated"
- ©ra$s™ (Reject Of Society)

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby Anxiety69 on 16/12/2009, 18:45

WOW! the people on that site... Some guy from a PE band blames APN singlehandedly for ruining his record sales.
Image

I'm too pissed to be a folksinger
I'm not a punk but that's where I'm coming from
I'm not too into music but I got so much of it inside
I'm not a drunk aggressive idiot
And I used to believe in punk I thought it might offer something new
but punk ripped me off cheated me out of something close to me
I'm trying to move along but some roots reach pretty far down
I'm interested in politics and action In trying to create something that's not
I feel like I'm in the middle of everything There is no niche for me
And I believe in anarchy in trying to live autonomously
I try not to walk my talk but to talk my walk - $ETH!

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby MTR on 16/12/2009, 19:10

ungovernable wrote:As for moshpit tragedy, they wanted us to remove all their downloads even if they were distributing it themselves and they also asked us to take down all albums of a couple of well-known bands that have no links with them

to me "free music" is synonymous of not monopolizing the distribution in the hands of only 1 person, it's also considering the peoples doing helping you in your work (considering your work is supposed to help the bands spread their music) as ALLIES and not as ennemies to fight against just because they didn't ask you the permission to help you...

C'mon, if i had a whole lake of water and everyone wanted to drink some water, either i'd allow everybody to drink or nobody at all, period. I'd not say some ridiculous bullshit like "oh yeah sure you are allowed to drink my water since i'm a nice dude and since i'm a punk against private proprety and want to help the peoples who doesn't have access to water..... BUT you need my AUTHORIZATION first, and if i EVER caught you taking my water, or helping peoples to find the water they need, without my authorization you will have to give it back to me and never drink water again!"


I didn't ask you to take down bands I have no links with. They are bands who I work with and who I know want control over where their own material. You want to hear from them directly - maybe if they have time they will write. Maybe not. Either way I'm done with that regardless.

For the record, I wasn't trying to be your enemy, I was just trying to get the stuff taken down. We came to a conclusion that you would link to the appropriate MTR page for any of our downloads. Great, fine. I still don't personally agree with what your doing with everyone else's downloads but that's not up to me to decide so we agree to disagree and move on. When A-P comes up elsewhere I have said nothing. You're obviously free to say what you want and you have said your piece about me, so in the future I would hope even if you don't really like me for some reason, if you want punks to be allies, that you can give me the same respect.

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby ungovernable on 16/12/2009, 19:34

WOW! the people on that site... Some guy from a PE band blames APN singlehandedly for ruining his record sales.

Well, I can sum a part of it up for you. Considering the Provoked L.P.s were on APN, we felt deceived. We spent so much money on art for ALL the albums, PE spent so much on the pressings and packaging to really give the buyer a real visual stimulant...and message to say the least. APN dragged ALL of our efforts through the mud and completely disrespected the DIY effort and commitment we ALL put in. Due to APN's unthoughtful and self-centered acts, we (the new band) have decided to not release any thing digital (CD, MP3's, etc.). We ended up close to bankrupt on the amount of money we just spent on our newest recording, art, gatefold, etc. that we're not about to give some young, unappreciative, "revolutionary" nitwit the opportunity to ruin the DIY message and punk outrage that our music and art reflect.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

i think i laughted for 15 minutes when i saw this

Profane Existence releases were available for download during only a couple of days. PE was the FIRST label to request their stuff to be removed.
WHAT A BIG FUCKING DRAMA !!!! Oh yeah we stole all their money, now they're in bankrupt just because of us haahahhahahah this is ridiculous

And they are blaming anarcho-punk for everything :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Seriously you guys should stop wasting your time argueing with these peoples, they will not do any better than blaming us for everything and throwing random insults

Nobody DESERVES to hear hard to find/OOP music. No band owes you, the listener, a damn thing.

What a good concept of anarchy!


Besides, a real anarchist should have the Profane Existence back catalog committed to memory

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I actually posted a request for each PE album to be removed in the forum where they were posted. Your moderator went through and deleted all the comments. Not knowing which albums are PE's is a joke.

That's not what he did, he posted the same copy/paste message on random threads and never answered us when we asked politly for a list of the bands.


If AP net is so keen on supporting radical and revolutionary ideas, why is there no further information about the bands or ideas behind the lyrics? Why are there no lyrics posted at all? Album art? Why is there no label information? Band contact info?

We have repeated him like 20 times that it's in our projects. I even posted a thread about our projects for 2010.

But dan keep talking shit in the only goal to ruin our reputation

Why is there no information about REAL ANARCHIST ORGANIZATIONS THAT ACTUALLY DO WORTHWHILE STUFF BESIDES BUILDING STUPID INTERNET HIERARCHIES AND CLIQUES?

Hahahahaha and look who's talking, the dude who think he's real and true anarchist only because he started a label

We have no lessons to receive from him. Anarcho-punk.net was made by serious anarchists from various organizations (and dan probably never did anything for such organizations) we are very involved in the scene and in activism, way more than him.
We are firstly anarchists, and then SECONDLY we are punks. We are way more involved in anarchist activism than the punk scene. Dan is a punk, nothing less, nothing more.

And once again he keeps talking shit and lying, because anarcho-punk.net have various informations and we DO provide infos about organizations and such.



The fact that he is calling us thieves is really funny. He is asking for donations and he is spreading ads on his website and asking for $100 per month while his fucking server cost only $4 per month.... we proved it and he refuse to admit it !!
But nobody @ PE cares because a lot of the members are just mindless sheeps who lick dan's butt because he's famous. To quote some members, they said that even if he was asking money for NO reason at all they would give him money :rofl:

Anyway like they said, they don't have their word to say. It's dan's business, dan's label, dan's website, dan's forum, dan's dan's dan's. Dan's propriety.

How fucking anarchist is that !

"but dan is the one who invested most money, he has the right to do what he want!"
So "anarchist" labels and organization should work in the same basis than big capitalist companies and shareholders ?


Reading most of dan's post, he critize anarchism and basically say it is not a possible alternative. He ridiculise peoples saying anarchism is the solution to all problems (yes it is, laugh again please) but basically what leads you to considering yourself as an anarchism should usually be the fact of realizing that capitalism is the cause of ALL social problems.
When i see arguments like that, it makes me believe this person doesn't even believe in anarchism. Then why is he working for an anarchopunk label? And why he teach us lessons on what is anarchy and what not?

another funny quote:
yeah, i like some anarcho punk, etc but i never thought after age 17 that it was going to topple anything but an empty bottle. sorry.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:




Ok i've read enough. I'll go back to my others forums "where we don't care about activism infos and where we don't talk about any anarchist organizations", i need to read something more serious :lmaorofl: :lmaorofl:
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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby ungovernable on 16/12/2009, 19:40

I didn't ask you to take down bands I have no links with. They are bands who I work with and who I know want control over where their own material. You want to hear from them directly - maybe if they have time they will write. Maybe not. Either way I'm done with that regardless.

For the record, I wasn't trying to be your enemy, I was just trying to get the stuff taken down. We came to a conclusion that you would link to the appropriate MTR page for any of our downloads. Great, fine. I still don't personally agree with what your doing with everyone else's downloads but that's not up to me to decide so we agree to disagree and move on. When A-P comes up elsewhere I have said nothing. You're obviously free to say what you want and you have said your piece about me, so in the future I would hope even if you don't really like me for some reason, if you want punks to be allies, that you can give me the same respect.

The last 2 paragrafs you quoted were not specifically dedicated to you or to moshpit tragedy.

Don't worry i don't consider you as an enemy just because we have different views, at least you are not talking shit about us and don't seem to want to start a war with file sharers

I think we came to an arrangement for MPT records, so to me the case is solved.
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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby Alex Distro-y on 16/12/2009, 20:39

I really feel that this thing has got out of hand on both threads the one on here and the one on PE it is just abuse being thrown at each and it is people siding with which ever site they affiliate themselves with which is understandable.
I do understand there are alot of different views on downloading music and I am all for it although I rarely do it. As I have enough music to listen to.
However I believe that Anarcho-Punk.Net should ask permission to all the bands they have music up for download by I know some will have no problem with it and others will which is understandable from my point of view. But if I recorded music I know I would want to know what people are doing with it and it is something I feel shows respect for other to ask their permission.

I run a label and I have done a few co-releases and have a few more lined up. I have the releases I have so far released up for free download on my website all bar the band behind has given me the go ahead to put it up I have just not got around to put due to me being a bit lazy of recent and to busy. I asked the bands could I put up the releases and they said yes. For me I would never have done anything with out their permission out of the respect for these people alot of whom I know and admire. Since then I have seen other sites with releases I have helped to put out up for download including this site however I have not said anything cause I believe it is not my place as its not my music it is the bands and I dont know if they have agreed to it I presume from reading and looking through this discussion, AnarchoPunk.net and other download sites have not asked. And this annoys me not because my label maybe losing money or anything it just seems really ignorant and disrespectful.

Another thing I seen earlier on in this thread that somebody said it wouldnt be a bad idea asking permission which I agree as just outlined. However this idea was pretty much batted away and laugh cause of the amount of work it would take to ask however amount of thousand bands. I dont know if yous care about respect for these bands or not. But AnarchoPunk.Net owes these bands to at least get their permission as with out those bands this site wouldnt even exist. But ya thats my two cents
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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby Cocytus on 16/12/2009, 20:49

To semi quote Chumbawambas awsome Revolution EP, "Are we asking for music, or are we taking it together?"

Edited because Hex says im a drunk and typed it wrong, and is right.
Last edited by Cocytus on 16/12/2009, 20:59, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby Anxiety69 on 16/12/2009, 20:51

your right, it's all about digging sides at this point. I went over there just because i felt someone needed to speak up for APN, and I said I don't represent this site, just felt like someone needed to say something, and I've been accused of lying, insulted, and misjudged by the lot of them, and then they pat each other on the back for doing so. APN is a site i am proud to be a member of. PE not so much.
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I'm too pissed to be a folksinger
I'm not a punk but that's where I'm coming from
I'm not too into music but I got so much of it inside
I'm not a drunk aggressive idiot
And I used to believe in punk I thought it might offer something new
but punk ripped me off cheated me out of something close to me
I'm trying to move along but some roots reach pretty far down
I'm interested in politics and action In trying to create something that's not
I feel like I'm in the middle of everything There is no niche for me
And I believe in anarchy in trying to live autonomously
I try not to walk my talk but to talk my walk - $ETH!

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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby Alex Distro-y on 16/12/2009, 21:04

Anxiety69 wrote:your right, it's all about digging sides at this point. I went over there just because i felt someone needed to speak up for APN, and I said I don't represent this site, just felt like someone needed to say something, and I've been accused of lying, insulted, and misjudged by the lot of them, and then they pat each other on the back for doing so. APN is a site i am proud to be a member of. PE not so much.


I would say the exact same would happen here and just like any other web forum. It is hard to ridicule something like that its like going into some one elses house and abusing them for something you dont like that they are your going to get abuse back from everyone in the house and they will think they were in the right but once you leave and go back home I would guess you think you were the ones that was right.
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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby ungovernable on 16/12/2009, 21:10

Alex, I understand this point of view, but then tell the millions of blogs the same thing (ask before helping to share) and stop making a big drama like everything was anarcho-punk.net's fault like peoples are pretending @ PE forums

And tell www.Punksandskins.com it is humanly possible to ask 80,000 bands if they can share their stuff.

You should worry more about problems like this, real theft:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2788
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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby Alex Distro-y on 16/12/2009, 21:54

I do understand what I am saying is a very tedious and in the case of www.Punksandskins.com is kinda impossible. But all I am saying is it should be up to the band not the likes of blogs or AnarchoPunk.Net (for example) and that permission should be given before the likes and this is what I kinda I feel Dan PE is on about. I do know there is other aspects involved but all I am saying that this aspect should be taken into account.

As for the merch it is something that I have noticed myself and I have recently order patches to sell in my distro under the impression the people (who I am not going to mention for obvious reasons) doing so were allowed for a number of reasons but more recently I think I have been thinking I have mislead myself in thinking so. But that is for the other thread not this one.
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Re: PE discusses AP.net

Postby punkmar77 on 16/12/2009, 23:41

Look Ungovernable has stated over and over that if a band wants their stuff removed he will do so. Also Dan PE, Ungovernable, Cocytus, ASA, myself or anybody else is not above criticism. This is a great web site, but it is great because of the community not the free downloads, the downloads are just a bonus. Many of us have been around longer than Profane Existence, and will be around long after everyone forgets about them. I personaly embrace all true anarchists, regardless of 'camps'. Anti-Authority, including people who think they are the Authority on Anarchy.
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