Veganism

[apples&onions]

You couldnt be more wrong.being vegan is way more than just a "dietary" decision. It stands for so much more than that. The point of veganism is to end the suffering of human and non human animals. animal agriculture is one of the biggest contributors to global warming,climate change, extreme pollution. It is the largest sectoral source for water pollution,and is a key component in land degredation. This is just a slice off the top of what animal agriculture in this country does. Not to mention all of the health risks involved with consuming antibiotics and hormones that are given to the animals to grow at unnatural rates to speed up production.the animals are fed these drugs and by eating these animals we in turn ingest them as well. It's sad and really really disgusting the way the animals are treated. Abused, tortured, treated as commodities. And it turn its making humans sick..we spend billions annually on diet related surgeries ie open heart surgeries heart attacks, diabetes etc. So to me, by being vegan I am standing up to agro business and demanding it to change, even if its in a small way. But guess what, the vegan population has more than doubled in the past ten years, so by making a stand others will follow and change will happen. Also, i want to address your, how would everyone be fed question. it takes 16 pounds of feed(which is made up of corn,soy and grains) to produce only one pound of edible flesh. If we used this source more efficiently and fed it to humans instead of breeding animals to eat, we could solve world hunger. farmers in developing countries who have efficient plant based agriculture are being replaced by intensive livestock rearing. These farmers are being pushed out as a result. If more people were vegan we would be less reliant on government and this industry and more reliant on ourselves. More people need to grow their own food so we arent so dependent and it would make produce more affordable. big agro business forces independent organic farmers out making it less accessible and more expensive to eat fresh foods. If more people supported the small independent farmers, the demand would go up and these things would not be seen bourgeois.I dont want to eat fuckin GMO S and crazy ass chemicals. fuck that, its fucked how we think we have no control of this but we do, by demanding it. i dont trust a corporation or this government with my livelihood and especially not the food i eat, clearly the insurane industries BANK on all the sick americans. anyways, i didnt join this to fight, i joined in to find community.

No fucking shit to all of that, but diet is not a political/radical/revolutionary tactic and should not be proposed as one.

[Danarchy]

@danarchy I am speaking purely of the animal agriculture as it relates to the USA. I definitely have thought of this, I work in gardens and have talked with farmers about fertilization. There are other natural ways to fertilize. maneur is the best fertilizer, but it doesnt mean we have to exploit animals to get it. I am simply saying that what you eat, where it comes from and how it was raised is extremely important in abolishing so many issues, especially in the US.

Brother, You can see in my previous post on this thread, before the discussion about practical farming things that the reality of any food consumption at this time will result in the slaughter of animals; either as meat or due to a drop in productivity (dairy/ eggs). At the current time a farmer can not be expected to keep non-productive livestock and pay their bills, it just isn't possible. Although I have kept two of our goats for the past four years after pulliing out of producing goat milk. I would not keep chickens, though I love them dearly, they can live for 6-7 years after laying. For me to do this it would increase the cost of my eggs from $5.50 per dozen by about $2.00 per dozen per year after the hens completed laying. I would also need to increase my production reflective of the flock size i.e. 25 hens laying, 25 hens out to pasture = 50 hens laying, 50 hens out to pasture = 100 hens laying, 100 hens out to pasture etc. Calculate that out to say 7 years with no mortality in the mean time and I would end up with 1600 hens laying and 1600 hens out to pasture. From my experience a 200 hen laying flock can/ should provide one person full time work and can be done using portable coops and pastures (pasture fed not 'free' range). In reality in the US battery hen operations can be over the 50,000 hen range and industrial 'organic' producers are not much better.

So the choice for Vegetarians/ Omni's is buy small producer direct or buy from the industrial producer but the choice for Vegans is more complex as local production of vegan protient sources may not be sufficient. It is not typical for a small scale producer to plant sufficient quantity of low value/ high processing crops such as dry peas and beans or rice or dry corn. By low value I mean the average income that can be expected per acre, high processing is not that they need to manufactured into a secondary product but I doubt anyone other than myself has ever hand threshed/ harvested grains or dried beans on the 1/4-1/2 acre scale. The type of Combine needed for small acreages (5-10 acres) is no longer in production/ sale in the US, Chinese/ Indian imports are crazy expensive and most can not be imported due to emission controls. Whereas used combines of that size are between 30-50 years old. You would literally need 5 for extra for parts as they are no longer made.

But this is only to highlight some of the considerations necessary for ethical food choices, simply being 'Vegan' does not make your dietary decision any better/ more ethical than those who choose omni. Those who have eaten the meat I used to produce and those who eat the eggs we currently produce certainly do not support the industrial agricultural industry. Now, for many the choice becomes even more difficult as the major cities/ mega cities quite likely do not have a reasonable supply of farmer direct product. Personally, I don't know how anyone could live in a city greater than about 15,000 people or live in concrete monstrocity when alternatives do exist.

Also I do not pose any such debate about 'how would we feed the world'. I completely agree that the massive scale of meat consuption/ production as well as the use of petrochemical fertilisers is causing increadible degredation as is industrial (including industrial organic) food production. Nor do I argue with those that believe in food scarcity, as the shortage is in distrobution not supply but without the use of manure or petrochemical fertilisers or other inputs (we use seaweed compounds, rock phosphate, green sand) the continual stripping of nutrient/ micronutrients kills soil through annual vegetable production far faster than free range/ grass fed meat production. As a farmer, I do not grow what I choose to grow or what would be a balanced diet (I do for myself) but I grow what people will buy in sufficient volume to meet the minimal needs of my costs. As those costs become lower or shared among more Co-operative members we expect to produce less for sale and arrange different sales to meet the needs of those we deem worthy to eat our food rather than sustaining those we vehemently oppose (I do not like even considering that a single carrot I have grown has been eaten by a fundamentalist, racist shit head).

Big agri-business does not force small scale producers out, consumers do. If consumers recognized that eating is a privilage given to them by farmers rather than a right they impose through enslavement of farmers things might actually change. I know that my personal wage is about $3.00 per hour due to the number of hours I work vs the wage I receive, BC minimum wage is $10.25. When customers complain about the price of my produce or the price of food in general I will typically do a quick judgement based on what they are wearing and say ya it's the shit's (obviously employed person) or discuss an alternative arrangement with them (seniors, low wage families, obviously impoverished) or kick them out of my stall and tell them that I do not live in poverty for them (anyone whose clothes would cost more than I make in a week, it happens).

In the mean time Anarchists need to work amongst ourselves and with others to develop effective alternatives and strategies to the current food system. I do agree that Veganism is one step a person may take but so is ethically directed choices such as small scale farm direct; I do not argue against Veganism rather oppose living under illusions.

And just a question, how exactly does being vegan make you less reliant on government?

[BrotherWarrior]

I live in a large city(I am getting the hell out in a couple months) and here the food system informs urban life in such a different way.Most available food that is cheap and accessible is total garbage. Fast food, processed food in grocery stores, monsanto filled vegetables etc. I am forced to go out of my way in order to eat healthfully. I go to co ops and support farmers markets etc. I am not a wealthy person, i am working class so by doing this I sacrifice having money for other things. However, I feel that eating healthy and supporting local organic farmers, is way more important than say going out or whatever other bull shit i could do with my money. With access to a variety of foods, it is unnecessary to eat meat. I am fully sustained and healthy on a plant based diet. By eating meat somewhere like here, I am supporting an ugly business. So I have chosen not to. I do not think if everyone went vegan tomorrow, things would be better. I know that it is logically ridiculous. We would be faced with so many other issues.
But as you said, its not the agri-businesses fault, it is the consumers fault for supporting the agribusiness and that is the point I am trying to make.just saying you don't care or its pointless is hurting more people in the end. What you are doing VS what factory farms are doing is completely different. I am in now way attacking your lifestyle, there are such enormous issues involved with the american food system that i could spend my whole lifetime fighting against it.
People have such a disconnect with where their food comes from. I am conscious about everything i put into my body because I have a respect for where it comes from. When I buy directly from a farmer, the food is means so much more. I am so appreciative with what was put into this food I am eating.
There are a lot of people that are going hungry, that live off fast food, that have such poor health that they suffer physically and in turn financially. I believe that if more people tried to adopt these values, buy locally, support organic food, give up eating factory farmed meat, then the demand for organic food would go up which means the supply would increase and it would become cheaper and more accessible.
There are more efficient and logical ways to produce food but while this country and others are based on capitalism, its hard to do this. So I try to advocate so at some point the food system changes. I ethically oppose the unnecessary cruelty and slaughter of animals and thats where the vegan aspect comes in. I give a shit about the earth, animals , my self and other humans..
and to answer your last question… I should have been more specific. Being a healthful vegan, one that buys locally, etc etc makes you less reliant on government because you are supporting small business, you are not eating chemicals which in turn you are less likely to get food related illness and contribute to our shitty healthcare system, and you are being a responsible consumer. I know that there are shitty vegans that eat bull shit but I am not speaking of those people.
so, i agree, being vegan doesn't necessarily make you a better contributor to society because lets face it, no one is perfect.But I think its a beneficial way to abolish bad practices that are unneccessary,wasteful and harmful. for me its not about being perfect, its about doing the best that I can. Supporting these big businesses is not doing my best so fuck that.

[apples&onions]

Completely agree with everything danarchy said there. Ant to Brother, you don't need to defend your dietary decision.

[Danarchy]

Brother

I think that the tone and tact of you original post is what set off the further discussion. While I have also been guity of being unnessesarily abrasive/ hostile posting here at times we will all be guity of that. I do not suffer edicts well. I am sorry for everyone that lives in 'cities' though they may feel they have 'good' lives in 'pretty' cities. The reality is that one tree, one park surrounded by concrete and development establishes a false worldview. It is not natural to live in cities; towns and communities yes but cities no. I hope that you find peace outside the concrete. Life can be more difficult in the country but that is usually a battle between your expectations vs needs.

I disagree that being vegan reduces your dependance or in anyway reduces government control on your life but growing your own food does. Though I can not understand any anarchist that chooses to live in a city, it mystifies me that those that do would not at least attempt to grow some of their own food or build links with rural anarchists. Sometimes I do wish I was closer to be able to support my brothers and sisters better but I am not. I choose to be model of agrarian anarhism that is neither primativist nor industrial, to show that you do not need to sacrifice your culture to leave the cities though I may be poor in posessions I am rich in culture, community and nature.

I am not alone up here, not only have I found neighbouring farms that have been established with similar attitudes as mine but I have found that many of the rural people here share in anarchist ideals. Many rural communities are still bastions of mutual aid and cooperation, the hands of government rarely push here because to them we are irrelevant, except at tax time, and if you run your farm right your a 'cash only' business pays what you choose/ need to in tax.

Completely agree with everything danarchy said there. Ant to Brother, you don't need to defend your dietary decision.

A/O You and I agree on alot. I'm going to troll you with agreement

[BrotherWarrior]

I guess I didn't realize that I was coming off as abrasive. I apologize for coming across as such. I am strong in my beliefs but I am also open to others opinions and ideas.

You're right cities are not natural. Often times, it disgusts me how people live here. Especially in NY where people are completely out of touch with nature, and in my opinion reality. Everyone is so wasteful and self involved...
Which is way I am getting the fuck out ASAP. I am a nature boy and I am tired of having anxiety attacks from feelin so closed in, gasping for air. people who consider themselves anarchists and activists come here in hopes to promote change...but it seems hopeless after a while. That's a reason I wanted to come here. I lived in the NW and found comfort there but wanted to be a part of something bigger. I wanted to help society. Now I'm realizing that I can't change societythis but I can at least change myself and set an example...and I will do so by living life in the country .
It's hard to have anarchist ideals and live in this fuckin city.

It sounds like you have found a really awesome community. I hope to be a part of something like that very soon. I need to be in a communty that shares the same ideas, i have not found that here but I can't say that I am surprised.

[Utopian]

im an vegetarian for 1.4 years
try this site:
http://www.veganwolf.com/veganmenu.htm

http://features.peta.org/VegetarianStarterKit/index.asp

http://www.thekitchn.com/15-vegan-dinne ... m-t-136506

http://www.chooseveg.com/vegan-recipes.asp -Very awesome worth checking it out

[Ivanovich]

Brother

I think that the tone and tact of you original post is what set off the further discussion. While I have also been guity of being unnessesarily abrasive/ hostile posting here at times we will all be guity of that. I do not suffer edicts well. I am sorry for everyone that lives in 'cities' though they may feel they have 'good' lives in 'pretty' cities. The reality is that one tree, one park surrounded by concrete and development establishes a false worldview. It is not natural to live in cities; towns and communities yes but cities no. I hope that you find peace outside the concrete. Life can be more difficult in the country but that is usually a battle between your expectations vs needs.

I disagree that being vegan reduces your dependance or in anyway reduces government control on your life but growing your own food does. Though I can not understand any anarchist that chooses to live in a city, it mystifies me that those that do would not at least attempt to grow some of their own food or build links with rural anarchists. Sometimes I do wish I was closer to be able to support my brothers and sisters better but I am not. I choose to be model of agrarian anarhism that is neither primativist nor industrial, to show that you do not need to sacrifice your culture to leave the cities though I may be poor in posessions I am rich in culture, community and nature.

I am not alone up here, not only have I found neighbouring farms that have been established with similar attitudes as mine but I have found that many of the rural people here share in anarchist ideals. Many rural communities are still bastions of mutual aid and cooperation, the hands of government rarely push here because to them we are irrelevant, except at tax time, and if you run your farm right your a 'cash only' business pays what you choose/ need to in tax.

Completely agree with everything danarchy said there. Ant to Brother, you don't need to defend your dietary decision.

A/O You and I agree on alot. I'm going to troll you with agreement

It's not really possible to grow your own food if you live in a city. I tried in London, lack of space, and soil is dead. I got a few peas growing, that's about all. Depends how much land you have access to, I guess, but people tend to move about more in the city also. Not much point growing anything if you going to be living somewhere else a few months later.

[Caps]

Brother

I think that the tone and tact of you original post is what set off the further discussion. While I have also been guity of being unnessesarily abrasive/ hostile posting here at times we will all be guity of that. I do not suffer edicts well. I am sorry for everyone that lives in 'cities' though they may feel they have 'good' lives in 'pretty' cities. The reality is that one tree, one park surrounded by concrete and development establishes a false worldview. It is not natural to live in cities; towns and communities yes but cities no. I hope that you find peace outside the concrete. Life can be more difficult in the country but that is usually a battle between your expectations vs needs.

I disagree that being vegan reduces your dependance or in anyway reduces government control on your life but growing your own food does. Though I can not understand any anarchist that chooses to live in a city, it mystifies me that those that do would not at least attempt to grow some of their own food or build links with rural anarchists. Sometimes I do wish I was closer to be able to support my brothers and sisters better but I am not. I choose to be model of agrarian anarhism that is neither primativist nor industrial, to show that you do not need to sacrifice your culture to leave the cities though I may be poor in posessions I am rich in culture, community and nature.

I am not alone up here, not only have I found neighbouring farms that have been established with similar attitudes as mine but I have found that many of the rural people here share in anarchist ideals. Many rural communities are still bastions of mutual aid and cooperation, the hands of government rarely push here because to them we are irrelevant, except at tax time, and if you run your farm right your a 'cash only' business pays what you choose/ need to in tax.

Completely agree with everything danarchy said there. Ant to Brother, you don't need to defend your dietary decision.

A/O You and I agree on alot. I'm going to troll you with agreement

It's not really possible to grow your own food if you live in a city. I tried in London, lack of space, and soil is dead. I got a few peas growing, that's about all. Depends how much land you have access to, I guess, but people tend to move about more in the city also. Not much point growing anything if you going to be living somewhere else a few months later.

Ivanovich, there are still allotments in London but holy fuck knows how you get your hands on one. A friend's sister has just got one but she lives in the fairly suburban High Barnet.

[Danarchy]

Growing your own food in the city can be difficult. A lack of soil vitality is one problem that can be remedied by using planters or raised beds but another concern, particularily in older cities such as London, is the toxicity of the soil. Remember that DDT was used extensively until the 1950/60's and many urbanites use things like Round Up without any understanding of the implications. Not to mention that many suburban areas are constructed on old industrial sites and the soil may contain high levels of heavy metals. As for moving around, unless your squatting and are being constantly evicted or can not afford your rent, it is a choice as is even living in a city.

Britian used to be famous for it's back yard gardens (victory gardens) and the skill of British gardeners is well documented. You could always WWOOF in Britian, I believe their system is far superior to the Canadian one. My partner travelled all through the UK and Europe on a few Euros by WWOOFing and occasionally picking up cash jobs. She did it for many years.

As an Agrarian Anarchist (not primitivist) I can not understand anyone's decision to live in a city, more so for Anarchists whom I believe should take personal responsiblity for their own food supply, when their are many opportunities to remove yourself from the system in the country. Sometimes it can be difficult in out here, jobs are harder to find, housing is seriously lacking, etc but not really any more so than in urban settings. Of course, I speak from a Canadian perspective that may not be the same in other countries. The US with no social system for example, but the UK is very similar.

[slother]

I think the reason that lots of anarchists (well at least anarcho-punks) live in cities is because of the abundance of shows. That was at least a highlight for me when I lived in the city and is a major reason why I got to cities nowadays because I live in a small town with no punk shows.

[Ivanovich]

Growing your own food in the city can be difficult. A lack of soil vitality is one problem that can be remedied by using planters or raised beds but another concern, particularily in older cities such as London, is the toxicity of the soil. Remember that DDT was used extensively until the 1950/60's and many urbanites use things like Round Up without any understanding of the implications. Not to mention that many suburban areas are constructed on old industrial sites and the soil may contain high levels of heavy metals. As for moving around, unless your squatting and are being constantly evicted or can not afford your rent, it is a choice as is even living in a city.

Britian used to be famous for it's back yard gardens (victory gardens) and the skill of British gardeners is well documented. You could always WWOOF in Britian, I believe their system is far superior to the Canadian one. My partner travelled all through the UK and Europe on a few Euros by WWOOFing and occasionally picking up cash jobs. She did it for many years.

As an Agrarian Anarchist (not primitivist) I can not understand anyone's decision to live in a city, more so for Anarchists whom I believe should take personal responsiblity for their own food supply, when their are many opportunities to remove yourself from the system in the country. Sometimes it can be difficult in out here, jobs are harder to find, housing is seriously lacking, etc but not really any more so than in urban settings. Of course, I speak from a Canadian perspective that may not be the same in other countries. The US with no social system for example, but the UK is very similar.

You got to be kinda rich to own property in London. In fact, you got to be pretty wealthy to rent. It's ridiculous, really. Anyway, I agree on cities, I just had to get out. They rot your soul, I think. You right about work, though. They is pretty much NO work available here. There is plenty of shelter, wood, food, the basics, free for the taking, really, but there just isn't a lot of cash around.

[refreshinghj]

I just wanted to see every ones views on this subject. I wanna see from both angles. As much as I agree with animal rights and understand how corrupt and terrible the food industry is, I still believe humans are, by nature, omnivores. Its how evolution created our teeth/jaw line and everything else. So what do you guys think?

[THEBLACKNOVA]

[patOi]

Watch this.. it will answer all your questions

[punkmar77]

Merged posts, remember to check on existing threads before starting a new one please, specially really common ones like this one...cheers

[Ivanovich]

A gun is dangerous.

False, it's a weapon.

DUH??

[moralthreat]

im all for animal rights and all but does it make you a hypocrite for eating meat and wearing leather? since i heard they scape the hide from them while they are still breathing and torture them

[Ivanovich]

Yeah, it does.

[Bakica]

No, it doesn't. I'm animal lover, and a vegetarian but i'm still consuming cheese and eggs. I just don't have the opporunity to change my eating habbits nor do I wish to at the moment. You can easily google and do research on animals that are being tortured all around the world, that might help you realize the situation and change your eating habbits. There's always something you can do to change things, start from little and easy work.

Cheers