Do not support The Lower Class Brats.

[punkmar77]

We cannot tolerate chauvinism and sexual harassment in our community.

Of course I agree with this, where we disconnect is on the supposed punishment for such behavior, would you have us lampoon the very society we are trying to change? I'm not defending the offender's actions I am merely stating that attacking our fellow forum member for his suggestion to Lauren is ludicrous and I am defending his thoughts on a pro-active solution, trust and believe me when I say If I had witnessed the offense firsthand I would probably be the first one to act irrationally and might even have sunk as low as assaulting the creep...but that won't change anyone's behavior in the long run and would more than likely result in myself behind bars and the person would just continue those behaviors. In my eyes Lauren has done the right thing up until now and I personally support her actions but I also support Agent Orange's attempt to offer an alternative solution without being insulted and bullied into feeling guilty for offering it...period.

[mike kadomiya]

THIS IS A CONTRARY POST. I ASK THAT YOU PLEASE READ IT THOROUGHLY BEFORE YOU REACT.

I DO support The Lower Class Brats and I find this thread troubling. I have been friends with Bones for over ten years. I can't say that he hasn't drunkenly slapped me in the face a few times but I have never seen him harass any women. I've spent 8 consecutive weeks on tour with Bones and Marty and I never saw any behavior that even remotely resembled what has been described here. In my experience, being on tour with someone is usually pretty intimate and it usually only takes about one week of tour for people's true colors to shine. Bones's ugly side never once appeared in the form of misogyny or sexual harassment. I am also including this information as a way of providing the full disclosure that I am entering this thread with a bias.

I can only offer myself as a character witness. I did not bare witness to this incident therefore I cannot take a firm position on what did or didn't happen. I can only draw from the information provided by the victim and the accused. What I find troubling is that pretty much everyone posting on here has accepted the victim's version of the story as fact when she clearly states that she was not an eye witness. It is not until after an eloquent defense from Bones and Rick Magee that the story is supplemented with an eye witness. Did anyone who is posting about this topic actually witness the incident? The victim claims that Bones assaulted her and Bones claims that he did not. Why is her account accepted as fact and Bones' account completely disregarded?

The writing in the original post exhibits quite a bit of prejudice and assumption. The post seems to express animosity towards the "street punk" genre/aesthetic. I understand that there was a lot of justified anger and frustration behind the writing so I am willing to take it as such. I would add that if one person sexually harasses another it should only be that persons actions that are called into question, not their style.
Having been a victim of sexual harassment at gender-queer bars and events multiple times, I am put off by the notion of sexual orientation defining the safeness of an environment.
I am also astounded by the arrogance of the statement: "I didn't recognize either guy so right away I knew they were not from Portland". Since I can only call character into question in this debate, this statement speaks volumes.
This is probably better left for a different debate, (but...) any statement about punk ideals and ethics are absurd. The ideals, ethics, politics, lifestyles etc... of punk were defined by masses of "punks" all with infinitely conflicting ideals before most of us were born. You cannot adopt the word punk and attach it exclusively to your vision. It belongs to no one.

Given the environment I have entered I expect to draw a lot of criticism for the following paragraph. Please just read this with a rational and open mind: This is a case of he said, she said. Two people are presenting opposite stories and both deserve to be heard. There is a reason sexual assault cases go to trial. It is for the protection of both the accuser and the accused. Whether we like it or not, false accusation is not uncommon. If I am criticized for suggesting that the victim in this case might be mistaken, then I criticize all of you for outright calling my friend a liar.

I am glad to know Bones, he is a close friend. For the sake of this argument I wish that I did not know Bones. I fear that the fact I am defending a friend might overshadow the fact that I am actually just defending a person who's word has been completely disregarded and ignored by everyone on this thread. So if you choose one thing in this post to respond to, please respond to the question I posed in the beginning: The victim claims that Bones assaulted her and Bones claims that he did not. Why is her account accepted as fact and Bones' account completely disregarded?

I feel for the victim in this case. It is sad that so many women have to deal with this kind of disrespect. I hate to side with human made law but there are laws in this country that I happen to agree with by coincidence, innocent until proven guilty is among these laws. As much as I do sympathize with the victim, I am not too frightened by my own p.c. shadow to question everyone involved. I agree that "we cannot tolerate chauvinism and sexual harassment in our community" or any community for that matter. We also cannot tolerate uninformed witch hunts.

-Mike

[alisaflewoverthecuckoosnest]

I agree that "we cannot tolerate chauvinism and sexual harassment in our community" or any community for that matter. We also cannot tolerate uninformed witch hunts.

You know what, Mike? You are very right. Truth be told, none of us really know what happened for certain, and perhaps we all ought to be a bit more contemplative about the matter before we react in any way.

[Ivanovich]

Yeah, Mike, maybe men get sexually harrassed too, but it's a lot for easier a man to kick the fucker in the teeth. The Idea that sexual harrassment is as big a problem to men as women is LAUGHABLE. Almost as laughable as that bullshit about victems being responsible for sorting out those that attacked them, or that they are wrong to get pissed when they are attacked. You want proof, er? You want a fucking photograph or what? Fuck you. Her word, his word, you know, all I am getting from your side is bullshit. You credibily drops 10 points with every addition worm that crawls out from under a rock. On balance of probability, you lost way back there. You are now entering fucking dickheads-ville. The court rules against you. Don't abandon Lauren, she needs our support.

[FilthyVermin]

people make mistakes when they are drunk, it happens alot, i got a venue closed down in chicago because of my extreamly drunk un-acceptable behavior. Shit is, i dont remember anything i did, after i downed 5 beers and half a jug of rum, no memory. so if he did that when he was drunk, isnt acceptable but it is explainable, sorry you were violated no matter who did it. but on the other hand, im going to keep listioning to music i like, only thing that could make me stop is if i personally fell victim to something related to the band or if they had sexist,racist,homophobic,facist, or militant str8 edge lyrics. hope you the best of luck with your musical career, shit knows mine is sucking ass right now

[Danarchy]

While I do not question what happened or that TW's friend saw Bones at the same time; I do question whether he did it or not.

I have worked as a bouncer at a couple of places through my youth and what TW has stated happened to her is tragically common. I'm sorry to say that it is as common now as it was 20 years ago. The pass by grope/ slap is also very common in night clubs. This is where an individual reaches from behind another person for the ass slap or breast grope and the person being reached past gets the blame. Also common is mistaken identity where there are so many people on the floor that a confirmation can not be made. I have removed and banned many people (about 75% men and 25% women) for dance floor harrassment. In many cases the accused was asked to leave only to have the harassment continue to occur through the night until the actual culprit was located.

I am not saying TW is mistaken, I am not saying Bones didn't do it; I am saying that trial by media is not justice. Innocent until proven guilty is also an anarchist ideal and failing to ensure a proper forum for the evaluation of evidence places us all at risk of false accusations. TW, Bones and a hell of a lot of other people were there and we have only heard from TW.

Questioning the incident is not the same as questioning the credibility of or failing to support the victim. Allowing the accused the same room to defend themselves is called fairness and balancing the verifiable facts against suspicion and inuendo is called justice or maybe I am mistaken and we have simply replaced the word witch for harrassment and we should burn all those accused of harrassment after floating them.

Again, I do not know TW nor Bones and I think LCB music is shite but I am willing to hear out both sides.

As a boucer without a third party witness (friends will say anything for friends but strangers usually tell the truth) I would have asked them both to leave the club then spent the rest of the night looking for the real culprit.

PM77 I disagree that there is a consensus amongst anarchists that mental institutions need to be destroyed. Saying so demonstrates a significant lack of understanding about many of those suffering mental illness and the care required to treat them. I believe that a more likely consensus would be that the current model of caging those suffering mental illness and the application of inappropriate treatment needs to change. Many of those I know who have suffered from schizophrenia, manic depression, suicidal tendancies and actually benefited from recent commitment to a mental ward but others received porr treatment and were committed for the wrong reasons (2 women I know were committed for being Lesbians in the 1970's and 1 actually received shock treatment). There are MANY cases of mental illness that require some form of containment while evaluating different chemical treatments, I have had a loved one attacked with a knife by their lover during a psychiatric break caused by a lack of medication or medical observation. The real change needed is not for those with 'sound' minds to declare that all those suffering with mental illness be set free but rather to support those patient rights groups with a thorough understanding of the patient's view along with medical professionals. Ensuring that patients are given the opportunity to lead meaningful lives without jeopardizing their safety or the safety of their loved ones.

[AgentOrange]

edit: ninja`d by Danarchy! funny that the witch part i was writing got another person at the same time...

its very sad that a bunch of people on here are so close-minded on specific topics (i know this is a special topic that triggers many people, experiences, fears, hatred, stories and whatnot)...

in the dark ages, society burnt women with red hair for the reason of being too smart, or were thinking on their own, or for the very sake of burning someone you dont like.

but thats the problem: her word against his word. whom do you believe? of course, you believe the victim of sexual harassment or rape or whatnot.
BUT: there are also people making similar stories up for various reasons. and if you lynch the offender, and he gets burnt while shouting "im innocent" (all metaphorically, please... for the witches sake.), how do you know if he is/was? maybe he was dead-drunk and cannot remember anything, maybe hes just a liar, maybe he IS innocent.

so: its okay to side with the victim. but its not okay to start a witch hunt on the offender. and i`m not sure how to get the truth out of a person who is not telling it, but i dont think the lynchmob is the best solution. and a lynchmob can also be a metaphor...

so, what i wish for: be sensitive and careful especially while handling cases that are handicapped by emotions, experiences, fear, hatred, and so on. please. for the sake of both, victim AND offender.

[doctor dee]

so, what i wish for: be sensitive and careful especially while handling cases that are handicapped by emotions, experiences, fear, hatred, and so on. please. for the sake of both, victim AND offender.

Strongly agreed upon the first sentence, but the offenders sake...?

Willingly crossing another human beings basic & very personal limits, like, in the case given:
Turning Trashwitch into a mere object and demonstrating his intolerable intent first to his mates and - far more important to us - finally in flagranti to her, calls for an imidiate response - preferably by herself and if necessary with the support of friends or bystanders, in the way she sees fit to cope with the trauma.
His actions turn the question of his wellbeing far behind her right to gain some compensation - at least that public "I'm sorry, I made a mistake and have done you wrong", which would be completely negating the aparent omnipotence of the idiot in face of his friends and maybe teach him a thing or two this way.

And maybe this way Trashwitch wouldn't have had to go out calling for the boykott of a band in public - after only one of it's members "could" have touched her inappropriate/inappropriately - too bad she could not identify the offender by herself and nobody else took action against him.

I wouldn't say that the somehow stranger parts of this thread come from closemindedness - but each of us has some personal deficits, thats a fact we should never forget - and the more serious a matter gets, the more we should try to overcome personal preferences and excuses for our weaknesses.
Only this way we will be able to set matters right on a common base of a vigilant fairness to keep people safe.

Special thanks to Danarchy for his reasonable approach on the matter of a liberated future psychiatry, indeed the discussion is still going on and as a member of the growing critical psychiatry movement I only like to mention the dire death of Kelly Thomas in Fullerton last year, forced out on the street...

Finally a message from the court:
Todays special prize goes to the mayor of Dick Village, Ivanovic, for his brave prolongation of the cliche' that damsels in distress need the male avenger to kick in some teeth... mate, you really made me laugh.

[Ivanovich]

Was that what I wrote, then? Let's see, no, seems I didn't. Misrepresentation, so that's the best you can come up with?

So lets see, if a woman gets attacked, I'm not allowed to give support unless I'm female??

If I see some bonehead types kicking shit out some asian guy, and I help out, that means I'm racist, right??

Is there no end to this bullshit, I wonder.

[Ivanovich]

So anyway, lets cut out the bullshit, Rape and sexual abuse. I do not know any victem that has ever reported it. You know why?

F E A R.

Fear that they will not be believed. Fear that they will be ridiculed. Fear that they will have to face their attacker in court.

Everyone believes the victem?? BULLSHIT!!

So the vast majority of attackers get away with it. Fact.

Fuck that.

You cannot take that risk. You cannot just treat this like theft, the psychological backdrop is too powerful.

Believe, unless you have good reason not to. So far, I see no good reason not to.

[Ivanovich]

Mike, I got abused by some wanker doctor, years ago. So what, I can joke about it now. Why you bring that shit up?

It aint relevent. It aint in the same fucking league.

[punkmar77]

PM77 I disagree that there is a consensus amongst anarchists that mental institutions need to be destroyed

Well I disagree with your disagreement, hence the word 'institutions' I never said anarchists disagree with treatment, but the word institution implies a centralized governing authority on mental health which as history has proven for every ten patients that actually receive beneficial treatment there are ninety that are actually harmed, so I repeat, it is an anarchist consensus that mental institutions be done away with and a healthier mental wellness practice be introduced... many of us in the US remember Ronald Reagan's disastrous policies t'wards mental health and much of today's street level homeless mental health seniors are a direct legacy of those policies...institutions are very clearly not the answer. But this is an issue for a different topic Dan...

Ivanovich:

So anyway, lets cut out the bullshit, Rape and sexual abuse. I do not know any victem that has ever reported it. You know why?
F E A R.
Fear that they will not be believed. Fear that they will be ridiculed. Fear that they will have to face their attacker in court.
Everyone believes the victem?? BULLSHIT!!

You are 100% on the target, I recently was involved with a male friend that was raped while plastered drunk by a close friend of his, I attended the court hearings as support for him, it was brutally painful to watch him have to testify in open court about exactly what happened and filled all of us with an unexplainable rage, by the end of it we were all highly upset and I can't even begin to imagine what he felt like, in the end the young offenders rich parents bought him his walking papers through the use of tens of thousands of dollars in defense attorneys, my friend is a working class squatter punk with barely enough earnings to live on and that is the reality of today's justice system...BULLSHIT indeed..

[Ivanovich]

Wouldn't say I'm a big fan of violence, but can't help thinking some people should just be killed.

[ZAchAtTacK]

I don't support the Lower Class Brats, but I really like a few of their songs...That's why I download 'em. That said, there is two sides to every story. Every one does have the right to be heard...I had an issue with this thread at first because I found it terribly one-sided, but now that all sides have spoken, I really feel the LCB member did something wrong. It's not for me or anyone except the OP to accept an apology or not to. He really fucked up. I get shitfaced stupid drunk all the time! And even then, I don't assault, insult or harass anyone unless it's done to me first in a malicious way...

Does anyone here really support LCB anyways? It's almost like preaching to the wrong choir. Fuck them anyways. I'm drunk and loving it. Stone Arrogant Bastard...mmmmmmmm...Beer.....

[deadrock98]

The one thing that I find troubling by some of the male punks is that some of them still have the mentality of the "bros before hoes" logic. I have known some guys that would say my friend would never smack a males or females butt or say lewd comments to a female or male. I have gotten those vibes from some of the people on this topic that they quickly dismiss what Lauren has said. Just because you have not seen someone say lewd comments about someone or do sexual assault on someone does not mean that they are not capable of doing such things. I am going to be man enough to say when I was a really bad drug addict and a terrible drunk I would say very lewd pretty much sexist shit to some female punks but I got talked to about it and nearly gotten the shit kicked out of me for it. I would have deserved gotten the shit kicked out of me for that sort of shit. I stand with you Lauren if there is some lewd comments or gestures made no matter who they are even if it is a singer for a really horrible clockwork orange punk band we should stand up against it and not just dismiss it as just some crazy story some woman made because like I said from some of the negative comments I have read some of you are going with the attacker instead of trying to hear or well in this instance read the story that someone is making.

[thrashwitch666]

There's really no point in me confronting Bones directly because as you have all seen he's just denying his actions. I am a witness to his actions. My best friend is a witness to his actions. Immediately after he did what he did he left the building. Though his friend's response "well, he only weighs 105 pounds and is nice to gay people, so obviously you are a liar!" was a nice try it's incredibly fucked up logic and when I read it I felt really hurt and angry. Thanks a lot for that. Oh and Anarcho4Life I'm so glad he was nice to your girlfriend. WTF?

[thrashwitch666]

Also someone else posted this on another board and I agree:

1. although the label owner implies that he "feels terrible" I see nothing in the following letter that implies any kind of feeling bad (except for how this reflects poorly on himself and the band)

2. he admits he was drunk. Not a beer or two, not tipsy and riding on the post show emotion, he was drunk.

3. this band put a record out call "we rather be hated than ignore". Maybe they should stick by their dogmas/mottos/etc, unless it was a joke or some kind of hot topic punk marketing scheme.

[morethanfights]

fuck them, lower class brats hella suck any why

[mike kadomiya]

Yeah, Mike, maybe men get sexually harrassed too, but it's a lot for easier a man to kick the fucker in the teeth. The Idea that sexual harrassment is as big a problem to men as women is LAUGHABLE. Almost as laughable as that bullshit about victems being responsible for sorting out those that attacked them, or that they are wrong to get pissed when they are attacked.

You are putting words in my mouth. I never once implied that sexual harassment is as big a problem for men as it is for women. I was simply empathizing with the victim because I have been victimized as well. I stand at about 5'5". Would it be easy for me to "kick a fucker in the teeth" when they tower over me? In one of the scenarios I was referring to, my genitals were groped by a man standing in the crowded hallway of a club. I gave the bouncer a heads up that there was a guy groping people in the hall. The bouncer asked who was being groped and I told him that it happened to me. The bouncer smirked and told me to "get over it."
Had I chosen to return and "kick the fucker in the teeth" I would have faced trial for a hate crime. I wouldn't dream of "kicking the fucker in the teeth" because I FEEL that losing one's teeth to a boot is a more horrific and permanent trauma than the groping that I received.

I had another experience in a bar where an older woman grabbed me by the ears and forcibly kissed me on the mouth. Who's teeth am I to kick in, in that scenario?

[Ivanovich]

Who cares. If the bastards loose a few teeth, maybe they'll stop doing it.